Intermediate weight loss programming

[timelinex]

At 6 feet tall and 207 pounds, I have a hard time believing that you are truly 'fat' enough to justify your concern. What is your waist measurement around the belly button? I am 5'10" tall and 220 pounds and yeah I don't have a six pack (and a small bit of a tire). By the way, you can maintain your weight and move towards a favorable body composition - even at the end of LP. That is exactly what I am doing.

My waist is 38.5". Not FAT, but a bunch of chub around the stomach and not much definition anywhere.

How fast does a recomp normally work?

I.e. how fast would an early intermediate lifter in his 20s be able to drop an inch off their waistline, while maintaining weight and getting stronger?

I've been doing this for 8 months and lost just one inch of waistline. But I'm much older, and far below average as a lifter. Maybe it's normally not such a slow process.

[added] Re: Patrick the Starfish joke.

The SS dogma is not that recomp is impossible, it's that it's not time efficient for a non-obese novice. I.e. a non-obese novice should put off fat loss for a few weeks until they are intermediate.

I'm curious about the best strategy for the slightly-fat intermediate.
Is it still more time-efficient to alternately cut and bulk, or does recomp make sense?

I.e. while recomping for 8 months, I only increased my puny squat by 15% and lost 1 inch of waist.
Maybe I'd have done better to cut for 3 months and bulk for 3 months.

Exactly my question. You were putting ~5lb a month on your squat (give or take depending on where you were at) . As far as I can tell, most of that could have come from getting neurally stronger and not actually any added muscle.

Thats why I'm wonder if it is best for me to cut and lose the fat "quick". Then start a long term slow weight gain.

Recovery is going to be the thing that will moderate all. Be careful not to get hurt or burn out.

This is definitely going to be something I have to watch out for. I think I have a partial labrum tear in my shoulder (no imaging)that was probably caused by wakeboarding but exacerbated with the LBBS. I cut down on the sport alot and I switched to High bar 2 months ago. My shoulder mostly stopped hurting and I have just now switched back to low bar. I do still have some shoulder sensitivity to the squat. I'm guessing it will be atleast a few more months until things start to heal sufficiently.

What did you do with your diet? That's really the first thing you should be looking at.

Also, and I have come to hate the word "nuance," but it's true. The responses from the coaches really are more nuanced than the seeming contradictory positions you've come to believe they hold.

You also might want to look at your programming and perhaps consider something a little more straight-forward, less complex, and more in line with your goals. Particularly, if the one you're doing doesn't seem to be doing anything for you.

I basically just try to hit my protein goal of 210 and calories of ~2900. The rest of the macros fall where they fall. I have been counting calories around 5 days of the week and the remaining 2 days I still try to hit my goal approximately but I can't count it because I eat things out that aren't easily countable.

It worked great for gaining ~1 lb a week throughout my LP and now I have been trying to about maintain and thats worked out OK as I've probably gained 2lb in 1.5 months.

This was all so much easier when I just knew I had to gain weight and lift more tomorrow than I did yesterday! Worked great for a while, but it all came crashing down as I switched to slower weight gain around 205ish and the LP came to a grinding halt (out of nowhere failed squats & failed press on the same week and failed DL for the 3rd week in a row and possibly even regressed in them)

[Pawn]

This was all so much easier when I just knew I had to gain weight and lift more tomorrow than I did yesterday! Worked great for a while, but it all came crashing down as I switched to slower weight gain around 205ish and the LP came to a grinding halt (out of nowhere failed squats & failed press on the same week and failed DL for the 3rd week in a row and possibly even regressed in them)

This makes me think you are not recovering enough. Reduce the number of accessories and cardio. The food was helping you recover... you reduced the food and your recovery resources.

If you want to shred out you can... minimal high intensity lifting, a bunch of low impact cardio, and calorie restriction. When done run a novice - LP again.

[Jenni]

Thats why I'm wonder if it is best for me to cut and lose the fat "quick". Then start a long term slow weight gain.

I'm going to try and save you some valuable time and effort: No. That is not best. It's double the work. Not the least of which is because losing weight will make you lose other things- like the ability to hit your lifts. Which in turn makes losing more weight harder. It's whatever the reverse of a snowball effect would be. Always add the weight, add the strength and then later if you are still so inclined you can "cut" down and not only will the cutting be easier but you'll find the recovery on the back end easier.

[DeanT]

First of all...relax...deep breaths.

Second, it is possible to maintain and even get a bit stronger while on a slow cut. I went from 25% to 15% BF in 5 months and all of my lifts went up (I was a new intermediate at the time just like you...but late 40s).

Third, lots of programs will work for what you are trying to do. If you like the bridge, you can just stay with block programming and run a long GPP block. This is lots and lots of reps in the RPE 6 range. You will increase your work capacity by keeping rest times between 2-3 minutes. This will shorten your workouts too. Let me know if you are interested in this and I can send you the data from the last GPP block that I did.

Fourth, you need to get down into the weeds on your food. If you want to get stronger while on a calorie deficit, you will need to be on top of your macros and nutrients daily. Food timing will become very important. Honestly, it feels a bit like another job for a while. Once you do it for a month or so, you will find a battle rhythm though and it gets much easier. I always make extra for dinner so I have my lunch meal already planned for the next day. I always drink my shakes between meals as snacks which makes life a bit easier. I have no secrets for breakfast...separating egg whites from yokes sucks...and I hate cooking eggs. Alas, I want to get stronger and I don't want the sugar in greek yogurt so I make the eggs. I will say that myfitnesspalplus makes tracking your food pretty simple.

Here are some simple food rules:
- 30g of protein per meal
- 3-5 hours between meals
- 30-35g of fiber per day (based on your size)
- watch out for the sugar...it is easy to blow this nutrient and it is a gains killer for me
- plan your food day out in advance (I like to fill out myfitnesspal in the morning...that way I know what I'm going to eat at it helps me manage temptations)
- water...lots of water.
- cycle your calories according to your heavy lift days...take 200 from one day and add them to the day you lift heavy. It really does help...maybe placebo though.
- establish go to foods that are largely 1 nutrient to fix a bad day (chicken (protein), cream cheese (fats) and apple (carbs) are my go to foods...cream cheese is ok alone but better on a cracker or some bread)

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions about the specifics of what I did and I'd be glad to help.

[Royce Nichols]

Time,

Why don’t you see if you can hire a nutrition coach? (Jordan, Santana, others). This seems really important to you and probably requires some more detail and fine tuning than can be hashed out here and would probably be worth it to shell out the money for a couple months to quicken up the learning curve and set you up better for the future

[timelinex]

Time,

Why don’t you see if you can hire a nutrition coach? (Jordan, Santana, others). This seems really important to you and probably requires some more detail and fine tuning than can be hashed out here and would probably be worth it to shell out the money for a couple months to quicken up the learning curve and set you up better for the future

Honestly, I dont think I need one. The nutrition side of things is the part I am most confident in doing. I have no problem adjusting my diet to achieve what I need to achieve (lose or gain weight). It's not a knowledge issue for me.

On the other hand, what I do need advice on is the workout itself. I don't have experience being in my current position and trying to lose weight.

First of all...relax...deep breaths.

Second, it is possible to maintain and even get a bit stronger while on a slow cut. I went from 25% to 15% BF in 5 months and all of my lifts went up (I was a new intermediate at the time just like you...but late 40s).

Third, lots of programs will work for what you are trying to do. If you like the bridge, you can just stay with block programming and run a long GPP block. This is lots and lots of reps in the RPE 6 range. You will increase your work capacity by keeping rest times between 2-3 minutes. This will shorten your workouts too. Let me know if you are interested in this and I can send you the data from the last GPP block that I did.

Fourth, you need to get down into the weeds on your food. If you want to get stronger while on a calorie deficit, you will need to be on top of your macros and nutrients daily. Food timing will become very important. Honestly, it feels a bit like another job for a while. Once you do it for a month or so, you will find a battle rhythm though and it gets much easier. I always make extra for dinner so I have my lunch meal already planned for the next day. I always drink my shakes between meals as snacks which makes life a bit easier. I have no secrets for breakfast...separating egg whites from yokes sucks...and I hate cooking eggs. Alas, I want to get stronger and I don't want the sugar in greek yogurt so I make the eggs. I will say that myfitnesspalplus makes tracking your food pretty simple.

Here are some simple food rules:
- 30g of protein per meal
- 3-5 hours between meals
- 30-35g of fiber per day (based on your size)
- watch out for the sugar...it is easy to blow this nutrient and it is a gains killer for me
- plan your food day out in advance (I like to fill out myfitnesspal in the morning...that way I know what I'm going to eat at it helps me manage temptations)
- water...lots of water.
- cycle your calories according to your heavy lift days...take 200 from one day and add them to the day you lift heavy. It really does help...maybe placebo though.
- establish go to foods that are largely 1 nutrient to fix a bad day (chicken (protein), cream cheese (fats) and apple (carbs) are my go to foods...cream cheese is ok alone but better on a cracker or some bread)

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions about the specifics of what I did and I'd be glad to help.

Thanks for all the info. Send over a PM with the template you used so I can take a look and see if it's something that would work for me.

I don't have as much of a problem setting up my diet to lose weight. I actually just lost 25LB last year (200lb to 175lb) right before starting the novice LP. My concern is a program that will keep giving me strength gains, or at the very least minimize losses.

I'm going to try and save you some valuable time and effort: No. That is not best. It's double the work. Not the least of which is because losing weight will make you lose other things- like the ability to hit your lifts. Which in turn makes losing more weight harder. It's whatever the reverse of a snowball effect would be. Always add the weight, add the strength and then later if you are still so inclined you can "cut" down and not only will the cutting be easier but you'll find the recovery on the back end easier.

I tried putting quotes around quick to make it clear that I don't mean some kind of actually super quikc diet. I mean the recommended 1LB a week type diet. Not just shed as much weight as I can diet.

This makes me think you are not recovering enough. Reduce the number of accessories and cardio. The food was helping you recover... you reduced the food and your recovery resources.

If you want to shred out you can... minimal high intensity lifting, a bunch of low impact cardio, and calorie restriction. When done run a novice - LP again.

I am definitely not trying to lose all my gains in an attempt to get lean and then start all over. We are told that as a novice, you should gain weight while the gains are easy and worry about losing the extra fluff if we need to once we are an intermediate. I gained weight. I got alot stronger and packed on some muscle. Now I'm at the "lose some fat if you need to" stage. Over the next 5 years, the goal is to ultimately be slowly gaining weight, muscle and strength for most of the time. I'm not looking to be a body builder. BUT, I also dont want to stay at 25+% the entire time either. That's why I'm hoping if I can cut down to a reasonable 15ish, I can then go back to focusing on whats important. My training and eating enough to recover.

You are 100% right about the recovering part. That is the issue I am worrying about.

[Dalton Clark]

Yeah, I can see why you'd want to lose some weight if your waist is 38.5 inches. Seems like you might have been too aggressive with the weight gain at some point. The Bridge or Andy Baker style HLM programming would suit you best.

YouTube

The above link is very informative. The best situation is to be in a slow but steady deficit. If you are close to a good weight, drastic bulks and cuts are just going to have you going around in circles.

[Ericreichelt81]

^this. At some point you'll have to realize some days just suck. For me, I don't lift on days I feel off. I just relax. On good days I go hard. One of the biggest pitfalls people make is stressing over the stress of lifting. Don't out the cart before the horse. Andy's idea of working up to a heavy set, plus a few backoffs is great. Takes 20 minutes. Run through a circuit for accessories and your set. Walk plenty and always leave room to titrate calories or energy demands down. Meaning, don't jump all in. Best of luck. Also, bodybuilding a bit. It works.

[timelinex]

Yeah, I can see why you'd want to lose some weight if your waist is 38.5 inches. Seems like you might have been too aggressive with the weight gain at some point. The Bridge or Andy Baker style HLM programming would suit you best.

YouTube

The above link is very informative. The best situation is to be in a slow but steady deficit. If you are close to a good weight, drastic bulks and cuts are just going to have you going around in circles.

Yea, I think at the beginning of my novice LP is where I gained 15 LB pretty dang quick. It was right after I lost 25LB, so the weight comes on real easy at first. Oh well. No big deal.

I've watched that video before, but I'll have to listen to it again. I definitely plan on doing slow and steady.

^this. At some point you'll have to realize some days just suck. For me, I don't lift on days I feel off. I just relax. On good days I go hard. One of the biggest pitfalls people make is stressing over the stress of lifting. Don't out the cart before the horse. Andy's idea of working up to a heavy set, plus a few backoffs is great. Takes 20 minutes. Run through a circuit for accessories and your set. Walk plenty and always leave room to titrate calories or energy demands down. Meaning, don't jump all in. Best of luck. Also, bodybuilding a bit. It works.

I'll have to look at Andy's programming options. I love the idea of working up to 1 heavy set and then doing backoffs. I'm really good at zoning in and going all out on 1 set. But then I lose steam fast on subsequent sets.

I went with The Bridge because I was serenaded a little by it's much lower intensity. I accumulated alot of injuries and nagging pains from that last month or two of LP combined with my sport. The lower intensity definitely feels good on all my body parts, but I'm not sure how I'm actually doing strength wise. So far it seems like Ive regressed on some lifts. I think it took a little bit of time working out the kinks of RPE and to get used to the volume. But I have definitely improved on being able to handle the volume. So I'm going to give it the full 8 weeks to see where it takes me.

It will last till exactly the end of the year, which I have a vacation after that. So it will be a good time to reevaluate and start my diet and possibly new programming.

[Dalton Clark]

For me, I don't lift on days I feel off. I just relax. On good days I go hard. One of the biggest pitfalls people make is stressing over the stress of lifting.

I agree with the gist of your post, but this mentality is something that shouldn't exist. Nobody would get anywhere decent with regards to strength if they only trained when they felt good. Your knees can hurt, your legs can feel tired or sore, you can even start your warm-ups and the weight feel crushingly heavy to where your reps are slow as molasses. You can still train. And you can still get stronger. I haven't had a day where I've felt 'good' going into a workout in over a month. Something was always off.