Intermediate weight loss programming

[FredM]

Did you put forth any conditioning efforts and what does your programming look like?

I haven't. I'm not quite in the same exact position as the OP but I expect to be soonish. I've been doing the program on my own for 9 weeks. As I've said my only conclusion related to this discussion is I should have maybe not gained any weight or lost a lb or 2 to start. Instead I programmed for weight gain. I failed miserably at it for 4 weeks then finally made some weight gain "progress" a month in after getting my calories high enough. I just feel kind of silly because I was eating myself sick every day to gain that weight. But I digress.

Now I'm 205 bw, probably about 23% bf, 5' 11", 30 years old, and my press/bench/squat/pull 5rms are about 120/180/255/310. Instead of cleans (I'm getting in person coaching on those soon) I'm doing bw chins and currently at 7-7-6-6. I'd like to get to 225/350/405/500, but I'd also like to not have manboobs and a gut. Been carrying those around for almost 20 years now and imma bout done living with them.

I honestly think that's the real challenge here that many non fluffy people can't empathize with. Many of us found SS because we tried getting fit by losing weight with the traditional means and it didn't work. We may have lost a ton of weight but we still have our unsightly fat stores -- they're just a little smaller. So we started researching strength training, all somehow found SS, and were convinced the issue was we weren't strong or muscular enough -- so get strong FIRST, then try losing the weight again. I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with that general principle but we're all very interested in when we can finally start getting rid of this fat that's plagued us our whole lives -- without losing out on all the strength gains we've grown addicted to on this program.

[FredM]

I am 5'10", with a 37.5" waist around the belly button, and weigh 225 pounds. I am definitely toe-ing the line of being in a weight loss situation. Just for purposes of defeating the idea that I am some lean and mean individual. Mean maybe. What this means is that I am between the general templates of "overweight" and underweight. I have currently been eating to maintain/slowly gain on a diet similar to what you ate previously - lean protein sources and whoel grain pastas, oatmeals, whole grain bread, and bananas. I have not seen an increase in my waist measurement while still making progress after 5.5 months into the novice lp.

You started at 185 and are pretty damn strong now. I wasn't calling you lean and mean, I'm suggesting you came at this from the more optimal direction.

[timelinex]

Thanks for starting the topic. It's a very valid question. I think the answer is obviously nuanced, but my main problem is like you said -- most of us are actually in this boat. So I wish there was more solid advice.
If you use this forum and SS coach articles as a guide you're probably going to conclude the problem is binary:

1. If my waist is under 40", I should immediately gain weight until it is -- the closer it is to 40" the slower I should try to gain weight.
2. If my waist is over 40" I should immediately lose weight until my waist is under 40" -- the closer it is to 40" the slower I should lose weight.

Once I hit 40" waist, my long term lifting goals, or am over 25% bf for other reasons, I either recomp until I do hit my lifting goals, or I cut if I'm close enough I can hit them during my cut.

This is effectively what Brett McKay did even though he started out at 185 pulling 450. He gained weight until his waist was 40" and he was pulling over 500 (his long term goal) then cut. And it works perfectly well for guys like that. But for those of us in the icky middle, starting with a measly 215 pull, I think this strategy is mostly unhelpful.

I agree with your conclusion. I think I'm too far into novice stages to try and lose weight right now, so I'll maintain until I'm done with novice LP then lose most of this fat, before bulking again.

I plan on training all my life, but it'd be nice to enter something closer to a maintenance phase sooner rather than later so I can spend the extra day or so a week running or playing a sport.

Looking at your thread that you started, you are still a novice. In my opinion, you definitely should not be cutting weight yet in your situation, when you are so close to the end. Start to maintain your weight. Thats what I did towards the end of my LP and what happened next was exactly what you would expect. I started coming to a grinding halt in progress over the next few weeks. No big deal. But I did still get some more progress and when I grinded to a halt, I now knew I was an intermediate and should advance to intermediate programming. I'm not saying thats the only way or the right way, but it made sense for me.

Once you are no longer a novice, you will be in the predicament I was in and what we discussed. At this point it's probably not too far away.....

BTW I don't think the recommendations that people like Jordan give are even as clear cut as you say....... I was ~25% BF (DEXA scan) around a month or so into my LP and Jordans recommendation was gain weight. His opinion was I was at that % because of lack of muscle and not because of too much fat. For what it's worth, I'm 10 LB heavier since that time and probably around the same BF now but a good bit stronger. The point is that blanket statements are hard to do and when they do it, its because they know that it will appy to XX% of people and saying something otherwise will steer more people wrong than right.

In general, keep lifting hard for years and everything else will fall into place. The more time I spend reading books on the subject, watching lectures, and reading articles.... The more I realize this unsatisfying simple truth.

[FredM]

Looking at your thread that you started, you are still a novice. In my opinion, you definitely should not be cutting weight yet in your situation, when you are so close to the end. Start to maintain your weight. Thats what I did towards the end of my LP and what happened next was exactly what you would expect. I started coming to a grinding halt in progress over the next few weeks. No big deal. But I did still get some more progress and when I grinded to a halt, I now knew I was an intermediate and should advance to intermediate programming. I'm not saying thats the only way or the right way, but it made sense for me.

Once you are no longer a novice, you will be in the predicament I was in and what we discussed. At this point it's probably not too far away.....

BTW I don't think the recommendations that people like Jordan give are even as clear cut as you say...

yup. I know I'm not in your exact position but I know I'm 1-2 months away depending on how big of a reset I get from my first coaching session. I wasn't ever suggesting I'd cut before eeking out everything novice LP has to give me. Again my question is really basically: "how strong is strong enough to cut." I know everyone's answer is something that's after novice LP. The one caveat is I like Izzy's idea of cutting at the beginning if you're borderline because the gains come easy anyway -- and I now wish I had done that.

And I wasn't attributing that advice to Jordan. As he always says, the answer is more "nuanced" than that. Which is why I asked him with my specific details -- I'm just now at the point where the nuance makes a big difference.

[Dalton Clark]

You started at 185 and are pretty damn strong now. I wasn't calling you lean and mean, I'm suggesting you came at this from the more optimal direction.

I started around 185 pounds with a 34 inch waist. I gained 35 pounds extremely rapidly (3 months) and had a 39 inch waist at the end of that. I have since gained an additional 5 pounds and lost an inch and a half off of my waist. I'm in the exact same situation as you guys, only I had a coach who told me to try to maintain my weight. It is frustrating to see people continue to make the exact same mistakes that I did initially when the fix is incredibly simple if you regiment your diet.

[FredM]

I started around 185 pounds with a 34 inch waist. I gained 35 pounds extremely rapidly (3 months) and had a 39 inch waist at the end of that. I have since gained an additional 5 pounds and lost an inch and a half off of my waist. I'm in the exact same situation as you guys, only I had a coach who told me to try to maintain my weight. It is frustrating to see people continue to make the exact same mistakes that I did initially when the fix is incredibly simple if you regiment your diet.

You did not start this program overweight. The end.

And you keep implying I'm suggesting SS sucks and it only makes you fat. That's not me bro. I love SS. I'm still doing it. I will continue to do it. I'm about to drop a ton of money on in person and online coaching so I can do it better.