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Thread: What Training Level?

  1. #21
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    The novice LP has 45 reps of volume per week.
    If you look at it in terms of the SRA cycle the SSNLP has 15 reps per cycle. If you look at #1 as a novice it has 15 reps in cycle #1, 9 reps in cycle #2 and 3 reps in cycle #3 which leads to the "peaking" that has been described and may help alleviate some of the mass fatigue accumulation that may occur when certain demographics run the LP.

    From an intermediate perspective each has 27 reps per SRA cycle which is almost double the NLP and may be appropriate for that level of training depending on relative intensity and appropriate assistance work.

  2. #22
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    If a 'certain demographic' has managed to accumulate substantial fatigue as a result of the novice progression (outside of the advanced novice phase), their programming is flawed. You choose the increased load from workout to workout based on the recovery capacity of the trainee. If a lifter is accumulating fatigue on a novice program (short of the end of it), they are not applying the principles of the SRA cycle properly. They don't need a light day. They need to reduce the increases in load to accommodate the reduced recovery capacity. SSCs have demonstrated this by microloading the squat on older women. Only an advanced novice/intermediate should be concerned with accumulated fatigue during their program.

  3. #23
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    wiigelec, has any human being ever run the program(s) you are proposing? What were the results?

    If these are untested programs:

    * Are you asking for advice before running them yourself?
    If so, give your current training, current lifts, age, etc. And maybe ask a coach -- I'm not a coach.

    * Are you a coach yourself, looking for volunteers to experiment on?
    If so, list your qualifications, as I wouldn't want to try something this far from conventional wisdom on the word of a guy who has little experience.

    Or, if you are just bullshitting on the internet, wanting to talk about training theory with no practical goal in mind and no practical experience to base it on, carry on. But I'll be checking out of this thread, as it seems pointless.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by whale View Post
    Well, intermediate. This will work after you've done SSLP but this is called peaking or tapering. Remember what Rip said, FAHVES develop strength. Moving to singles and doubles will just test your strength.
    So If I do 5 doubles at 93% of my 1 rep max, I will not elicit a strength adaptation?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    Take #1 and add in some assistance work and you basically have arguably the most popular program outside the SS universe.
    Which program are you referring to? I'm surprised there's a popular program that has you doing 3 set of 5 squats @9.5.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    Add in a light day and you've got a local commercially available program.

    #2 is a TM variant. #3 is a HLM variant.
    I mean, sure. But there are good variants, and there are not so good variants. I'd argue that this variant, for most, is not good because the volume is too low for a non-novice lifter.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    If you look at it in terms of the SRA cycle the SSNLP has 15 reps per cycle. If you look at #1 as a novice it has 15 reps in cycle #1, 9 reps in cycle #2 and 3 reps in cycle #3 which leads to the "peaking" that has been described and may help alleviate some of the mass fatigue accumulation that may occur when certain demographics run the LP.

    From an intermediate perspective each has 27 reps per SRA cycle which is almost double the NLP and may be appropriate for that level of training depending on relative intensity and appropriate assistance work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalton Clark View Post
    If a 'certain demographic' has managed to accumulate substantial fatigue as a result of the novice progression (outside of the advanced novice phase), their programming is flawed. You choose the increased load from workout to workout based on the recovery capacity of the trainee. If a lifter is accumulating fatigue on a novice program (short of the end of it), they are not applying the principles of the SRA cycle properly. They don't need a light day. They need to reduce the increases in load to accommodate the reduced recovery capacity. SSCs have demonstrated this by microloading the squat on older women. Only an advanced novice/intermediate should be concerned with accumulated fatigue during their program.
    I think the above two posts hit on a misconception that people have about why the LP eventually, and inevitably, fails. The common view that you hear is that as you progress through your LP, you eventually cannot recover in 48-72 hours, and so you increase the weight once a week instead and are thus an intermediate. In my view, this is false.

    The reason why you have recovery issues at the end of LP is because the LP at that point is not stressful enough to disrupt homeostasis and thus drive strength gains like it did initially. As the beloved 3x5 sets are becoming less stressful and causing a decrease in strength gains, the intensity starts climbing (because you are not responding to the stress as robustly anymore). Eventually, because the stress of 3x5 is increasing insufficient, you get to some brutal, grindy, terribly reps, and you might reset once or twice, maybe add a light day, and shortly after switch (hopefully) to more appropriate intermediate programming.

    Recovery is an issue at the end of LP not because you need more recovery, it's because you need more stress from your programming.

    This is why the routine the OP is asking about won't work well. It has nothing to do with recovery, it's just not going to be stressful enough for most intermediate lifters. Hell, it won't be stressful enough for a lot of novices that have some training under their belt.

  6. #26
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    If a 'certain demographic' has managed to accumulate substantial fatigue as a result of the novice progression (outside of the advanced novice phase), their programming is flawed.
    Agreed.

    You choose the increased load from workout to workout based on the recovery capacity of the trainee.
    Hmm, I was under the impression the load was selected based on successful completion of the preceding training session and an arbitrarily chosen increment ie 1-15#.

    If a lifter is accumulating fatigue on a novice program (short of the end of it), they are not applying the principles of the SRA cycle properly.
    Assuming the training sessions are occurring every 24-72 hours, maybe the individual's SRA cycle is slightly longer but they are still able to generate sufficient stress on a workout to workout basis. Then what?

    They don't need a light day.
    Where is there a light day?

    They need to reduce the increases in load to accommodate the reduced recovery capacity.
    Microloading is definitely a suitable approach but also can get to a point of diminishing returns ie <1#.

    SSCs have demonstrated this by microloading the squat on older women.
    Part of a 'certain demographic'.

    Only an advanced novice/intermediate should be concerned with accumulated fatigue during their program.
    Every level of training needs to be concerned with accumulated fatigue which is why it is recommended to not run 20 miles per week while doing a NLP.

  7. #27
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    If these are untested programs
    That was my earlier point, I don't see these specifically as "untested programs" simply variations on a theme...

    * Are you asking for advice before running them yourself?
    No

    * Are you a coach yourself, looking for volunteers to experiment on?
    No

    just bullshitting on the internet
    Probably the closest of the three

    I'll be checking out of this thread, as it seems pointless.
    Thank you for your time and feedback it is much appreciated

    The reason why you have recovery issues at the end of LP is because the LP at that point is not stressful enough to disrupt homeostasis and thus drive strength gains like it did initially. As the beloved 3x5 sets are becoming less stressful and causing a decrease in strength gains, the intensity starts climbing (because you are not responding to the stress as robustly anymore). Eventually, because the stress of 3x5 is increasing insufficient, you get to some brutal, grindy, terribly reps, and you might reset once or twice, maybe add a light day, and shortly after switch (hopefully) to more appropriate intermediate programming.

    Recovery is an issue at the end of LP not because you need more recovery, it's because you need more stress from your programming.
    How can increasing intensity at a given volume become less of a stressor?

  8. #28
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    Which program are you referring to? I'm surprised there's a popular program that has you doing 3 set of 5 squats @9.5.
    Pretty close to Wendler 5/3/1 but as you said maybe a bit higher intensity and sets across.

    I'd argue that this variant, for most, is not good because the volume is too low for a non-novice lifter.
    Thank you that is a valid consideration that could possibly be addressed with some slight modification, say add a couple sets here and there?

    Oops sorry quikky I got your quote mixed up in the previous post...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    How can increasing intensity at a given volume become less of a stressor?
    Because when the relative intensity is increasing during the novice LP, it is because the program is becoming an insufficient stressor.

    Think of it this way: when you just start the LP, 3x5 (I'm ignoring power cleans and deadlifts for simplicity's sake) is a sufficient enough stressor to disrupt homeostasis enough that you "gain" +5lb of strength adaptation 48-72 hours later. Then you add +5 more, and on and on it goes for a little while. The relative intensity climbs somewhat, but you're not really grinding any reps and it's smooth sailing for month or two. Then, things start to get harder than before. Why? Because the 3x5 stress is less effective. You're now more adapted to doing 3x5. So, now instead of gaining +5lb of strength, you're gaining say +3lb of strength (numbers have been pulled out of my behind just for illustrative purposes). Because of this, the relative intensity of your 3x5 sets starts to climb. Eventually, the relative intensity gets so high that you fail, or get close to it.

    Given that, do you just keep trying to add weight? No, you change your programming because you are no longer a novice. You need more stress than just 3x5.

    Intensity on its own is a stressor, but if the volume and frequency are inappropriate, it rarely works long term. If you only increase stress via intensity, do you just lift RMs every workout eventually? If it would work that way, we would lift less as we advanced as lifters, not more.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    Pretty close to Wendler 5/3/1 but as you said maybe a bit higher intensity and sets across.

    Thank you that is a valid consideration that could possibly be addressed with some slight modification, say add a couple sets here and there?
    Only you know what works for you. Programming is not an exact science, so if you have success with what you're doing, it doesn't matter what anyone says. The point is that *most likely* the program you outlined will be in appropriate for anyone but a rank novice.

    It could certainly work with "slight modification", depending on your definition of "slight", and the specifics of the "modification" :-).

  10. #30
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    For number 3, there is absolutely no use to performing a triple at 8
    I apologize for not making this clear the nomenclature is intended to be sets x reps so that would be 3 singles. 3 sets of 5 reps, 3 sets of 3 reps, and 3 sets of 1 rep. Perhaps this alters your analysis of my shitty programming?

    You're now more adapted to doing 3x5. So, now instead of gaining +5lb of strength, you're gaining say +3lb of strength
    This makes sense, thanks.

    Only you know what works for you.
    You assume too much

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