What do you do when your low back finally done with Traditional Deadlifts and Squats?

[Shawnlock]

I don't think seeking out a special program designed for a "degenerated back" is the way to go here.

I'm assuming that you have read the "Aches and Pains" article on this website, and that you have verified your forms and techniques with a Starting Strength Coach, so you should have probably known that if the pain lasts beyond the initial 6 weeks after the acute injury, it is not an indicator that there is something mechanically wrong with your body. The current large body of scientific data supports this biopsychosocial model. You seem to believe very firmly that there are problems with your spine, and I'm telling you that not even a good doctor can know that for sure based on all the fancy scans they can do. There are many many healthy people with a degenerated spine shown on the scans and they don't even feel the slightest pain. Lower back is a tricky spot and the accurate diagnosis for the reason of pain in that area is extremely difficult and subject to many confirmation biases. I read this in the book "How Doctors Think".

My advice would be figure out your training goal and choose intelligent programs to work towards that goal. Choose different programs from PPFST, Andy Baker or other trust-worthy sources and try them out to see how your body adapts. Regular form checks with an SSC would always be optimal if you have the resources, because I do believe in Rip's theory about "form creep" even though it sounds just like business promotion. Forget about your pain, especially the belief that there is something mechanically wrong with your body. If an injury or tweak happens during training, don't panic. It happens to all of us at some point. Watch Alan Thrall's "I hurt my back" video. Very useful and practical advices in there. I'm currently battling a slight back tweak myself and plan to assess if i need to just wear a belt, lower the weight, or even change range of motion. My apologies for the rant if you have already been there done that through it all.

[Nate9]

1 Your form might not be perfect, even if you think it is. You might want to post a video and get a critique.
2 Your belief that your back is trashed and squat and deadlifts will destroy you is doing more harm than good
3 All the bulgarian split squat and random deadlift variations you are doing are not "safer", they are just done at a lighter weight than a proper squat or deadlift, and that is probably why you find those variations to be better for you (and also because you convinced yourself that that's the case)

Does doing an empty bar deadlift hurt your back? What about a bodyweight squat? Find a weight you can do pain free and start rebuilding again, instead of wasting time sub-optimal variations.

[belawyer]

So who are all you guys giving advice? Its hard to tell because no info on profiles.

Hell yeah an empty bar with flimsy 10lb Olympic plates hurts. I can tweak my back just picking up a water bottle. Or standing/walking for prolonged periods of time will usually hurt for days. Sitting for prolonged periods like 4+ hour plane rides usually effs me up for a few days.

Sure i can still work my way up to a nice heavy squat. About a month ago I did a 5x5 front squat of 275. I built up to it over about 6 weeks and I had to maintain absolute form perfection like the slightest lean forward probably would have effed me up. But I was good and just happy I finished it injury free. The dude I share squat rack with saturday morning. And that was it.

Its just not worth the risk anymore. I guess you all don’t get it or dont really understand whats going on with the disc for degeberative disc. Go watch some youtube videos or educate yourself before you just tell a 40 year old guy (who has been powerlifing, mma and O liftig aince he was 18) to just suck it up and squat and deadlift. You all are morons and i’ve lost a lot of respect for Rip and his legion of followers if this is the garbage advice their peddlig on this forum.

1 Your form might not be perfect, even if you think it is. You might want to post a video and get a critique.
2 Your belief that your back is trashed and squat and deadlifts will destroy you is doing more harm than good
3 All the bulgarian split squat and random deadlift variations you are doing are not "safer", they are just done at a lighter weight than a proper squat or deadlift, and that is probably why you find those variations to be better for you (and also because you convinced yourself that that's the case)

Does doing an empty bar deadlift hurt your back? What about a bodyweight squat? Find a weight you can do pain free and start rebuilding again, instead of wasting time sub-optimal variations.

[Ericreichelt81]

Agreed. It's always, just start over doing what hurts, but lighter or a slight variation. Your strong, you can maintain that quite easily. What about a different workaround? Maybe, biking or hiking to hit the legs and Pullups for the back. I'm going on 40 Also, and working through pain to up my squat means fuck all to my wife and kids. I need to be able to work, productively. If that means I avoid some big lifts, so be it. Lastly, a lot of the people on here giving advice honestly are kinda strong and grossly out of shape. If you care about looking fuckable, I do, then bodybuild some upper body stuff and do the damn cardio. Your back will thank you man. Even consider Weighted vest incline treadmill, or stair stepper for legs. Good luck man.

[Nate9]

Agreed. It's always, just start over doing what hurts, but lighter or a slight variation. Your strong, you can maintain that quite easily. What about a different workaround? Maybe, biking or hiking to hit the legs and Pullups for the back. I'm going on 40 Also, and working through pain to up my squat means fuck all to my wife and kids. I need to be able to work, productively. If that means I avoid some big lifts, so be it. Lastly, a lot of the people on here giving advice honestly are kinda strong and grossly out of shape. If you care about looking fuckable, I do, then bodybuild some upper body stuff and do the damn cardio. Your back will thank you man. Even consider Weighted vest incline treadmill, or stair stepper for legs. Good luck man.

Biking or hiking as an alternative to squats... Whatever, you are on the wrong forum anyway.

[Eric Schexnayder]

Biking or hiking as an alternative to squats... Whatever, you are on the wrong forum anyway.

Gotta love these trolls who come in here already knowing the answers to their own questions.

OP, your mind is made up and was before you even got here. Go post elsewhere.

[belawyer]

Agreed. It's always, just start over doing what hurts, but lighter or a slight variation. Your strong, you can maintain that quite easily. What about a different workaround? Maybe, biking or hiking to hit the legs and Pullups for the back. I'm going on 40 Also, and working through pain to up my squat means fuck all to my wife and kids. I need to be able to work, productively. If that means I avoid some big lifts, so be it. Lastly, a lot of the people on here giving advice honestly are kinda strong and grossly out of shape. If you care about looking fuckable, I do, then bodybuild some upper body stuff and do the damn cardio. Your back will thank you man. Even consider Weighted vest incline treadmill, or stair stepper for legs. Good luck man.

I get where these D-bags are coming from on here trying to just say your a moron just squat and deadlift and lower weight and work back up. I mean that was me when I was 32, 33, 34 maybe into 35 years old. I was dead fu**** set that I was going to just work my way back up to 400+ deadlifts and 230+ snatches. So I even hired a powerlifting coach and then went back to get some technique cleanup from my former O'LIfting coach guy by the name of Richard Flemming. I also live in TX so I've worked out on occassion with Glenn Pendlay back when he was in Wichita. Bottom line is that it just aint happening for me at least. My back aint having it. And its not this way for everyone. I know plenty of guys on into their 40s and 50s that have rock solid strong spines. For whatever reason this was just my genetics.

Anyways, back to legit advice...I've been getting a lot of good advice from the 40+ year old lifters and they say you just get to a point you have to start dropping out exercises that are repeat offenders after a while and focus on what you are good at. A lot of former powerlifters also switch over to just plain bodybuilding type programs because these are easier on the body than Squatting and Deadlifting heavy all the time.

There is also this guy Elliot who I watch his youtube channel every once in a while. He's creeping through his 30s and starting to deal with a lot of the same stuff. He posted a video where he just unracked 500lbs just to illustrate some point not related to squatting and then got blasted by a bunch of posters for why don't you squat that. He said it's just not worth it to him anymore. He's got nothing to prove to these young lifters or beginner lifters. And then he proceeded to go off on a rant about how if you are getting to almost 40 years old and you haven't reached your most of your powerlifting goals by now and you are still chasing the dream that your pathetic. Guys at 40s and 50s should have way different goals in life than squat PR's and deadlift PR's and if you were a badass when you were late 20s and early 30s (the peak years for any athlete) then you'll never naturally be able to go back and break those PRs. I'm referring to guys that peaked at that age. Sure some 45 year old that hardly squatted and deadlifted his entire life can start a SS program and break PR's every week.

[Nate9]

I get where these D-bags are coming from on here trying to just say your a moron just squat and deadlift and lower weight and work back up. I mean that was me when I was 32, 33, 34 maybe into 35 years old. I was dead fu**** set that I was going to just work my way back up to 400+ deadlifts and 230+ snatches. So I even hired a powerlifting coach and then went back to get some technique cleanup from my former O'LIfting coach guy by the name of Richard Flemming. I also live in TX so I've worked out on occassion with Glenn Pendlay back when he was in Wichita. Bottom line is that it just aint happening for me at least. My back aint having it. And its not this way for everyone. I know plenty of guys on into their 40s and 50s that have rock solid strong spines. For whatever reason this was just my genetics.

Anyways, back to legit advice...I've been getting a lot of good advice from the 40+ year old lifters and they say you just get to a point you have to start dropping out exercises that are repeat offenders after a while and focus on what you are good at. A lot of former powerlifters also switch over to just plain bodybuilding type programs because these are easier on the body than Squatting and Deadlifting heavy all the time.

There is also this guy Elliot who I watch his youtube channel every once in a while. He's creeping through his 30s and starting to deal with a lot of the same stuff. He posted a video where he just unracked 500lbs just to illustrate some point not related to squatting and then got blasted by a bunch of posters for why don't you squat that. He said it's just not worth it to him anymore. He's got nothing to prove to these young lifters or beginner lifters. And then he proceeded to go off on a rant about how if you are getting to almost 40 years old and you haven't reached your most of your powerlifting goals by now and you are still chasing the dream that your pathetic. Guys at 40s and 50s should have way different goals in life than squat PR's and deadlift PR's and if you were a badass when you were late 20s and early 30s (the peak years for any athlete) then you'll never naturally be able to go back and break those PRs. I'm referring to guys that peaked at that age. Sure some 45 year old that hardly squatted and deadlifted his entire life can start a SS program and break PR's every week.

Sounds to me like you are dead-set on not squatting. If you are looking for someone to tell you that you can easily replace those exercises with something else that will give you the same benefits you are, like I said before, in the wrong place. Plenty of 50-plus (even 60-plus) people who squat and deadlift heavy regularly on this forum.

[belawyer]

Sounds to me like you are dead-set on not squatting. If you are looking for someone to tell you that you can easily replace those exercises with something else that will give you the same benefits you are, like I said before, in the wrong place. Plenty of 50-plus (even 60-plus) people who squat and deadlift heavy regularly on this forum.

I'm deadset on dropping traditional style deadlifts from my routine. I still squat quite a bit. I keep trying to work deadlifts back in, hire trainers, work on form, start off light with 65lbs, build up, and every which way I've attacked it for the last 5 years same result, hurt my back, hobbling around for days, can't even reach down to tie my shoes, just a complete mess and it's just not worth it. Why do I need to? What do I have to prove? I hit the standard 2x bodyweight deadlift goal when i was 32 years old and my BW was 190 and I pulled 2 reps of 405. I"m good. Those were the glory days over 8 years ago now. I don't have to live in the past chasing the dragon. New goals and new priorities.

I still squat. I work my way up to decent loads every once in a while on both front and back squats. However, there's a whole complex way of going about it now and it's not the 3x week model. AS I mentioned above, I kind of built up over 6 weeks or longer to a nice 5x5 set of 275 front squats (to parallel not ATG). It felt great but man I was really testing my limits when I probably should not have. In hindsight, I think I probably should have just knocked out one heavy set of 5 and called it a day. That was about a month ago and then I hit the reset button and deloaded, worked my way back up and hit a nice set of 295lb back squat x 5 and didn't try to overdo it this time. I just shut it down after my 1 set x 5.

[Eric Schexnayder]

I'm deadset on dropping traditional style deadlifts from my routine. I still squat quite a bit. I keep trying to work deadlifts back in, hire trainers, work on form, start off light with 65lbs, build up, and every which way I've attacked it for the last 5 years same result, hurt my back, hobbling around for days, can't even reach down to tie my shoes, just a complete mess and it's just not worth it. Why do I need to? What do I have to prove? I hit the standard 2x bodyweight deadlift goal when i was 32 years old and my BW was 190 and I pulled 2 reps of 405. I"m good. Those were the glory days over 8 years ago now. I don't have to live in the past chasing the dragon. New goals and new priorities.

I still squat. I work my way up to decent loads every once in a while on both front and back squats. However, there's a whole complex way of going about it now and it's not the 3x week model. AS I mentioned above, I kind of built up over 6 weeks or longer to a nice 5x5 set of 275 front squats (to parallel not ATG). It felt great but man I was really testing my limits when I probably should not have. In hindsight, I think I probably should have just knocked out one heavy set of 5 and called it a day. That was about a month ago and then I hit the reset button and deloaded, worked my way back up and hit a nice set of 295lb back squat x 5 and didn't try to overdo it this time. I just shut it down after my 1 set x 5.

Why don't you read this book, ask your questions to the authors, and stop giving shit to people who don't just outright agree with you?

Both Andy and Jonathan work almost exclusively with clients in the 40 - 70 year age range. If you feel your glory days are over, maybe they can help you figure out how to transition to some kind of programming more appropriate for your particular situation.