What do you do when your low back finally done with Traditional Deadlifts and Squats?

[belawyer]

I got turned on probably in my mid to late 20s to the greatness of starting strength Workouts A and B. I think everyone here is quite familiar but for those who aren't its:

Workout A - Squat/Bench/Deadlift

Workout B - Squat/Press/Clean

I literally spent probably 5-7 years building workout programs just off this training split. I could do traditional starting strength or 5x5 three times a week. I could make 4 day training splits with workouts A and B once per week and then HIIT, track, 5k, MMA, or whatever training another two days a week. I could build around workouts A and B by adding core/mobility/dynamic stretch and so forth at the beginning and ancillary exercises or HIIT at the end. I could vary reps and sets (i.e. 3x5, 5x5, 4x8, etc.). The possibilities seemed endless and I enjoyed this programming for many many years.

And then finally mid-thirties hit me and degenerative disc in low back started, well, degenerating. And then it finally got to a point where no matter how perfect my deadlift form was it just seemed I couldn't touch a barbell off the ground without flaring up my back and sidelining myself for about a week. Then squats started aggravating low back so I switched to front squats but then after a bit even those started to become problematic so then I got to where I can squat heavy maybe once every couple weeks.

So what now? what's the program out there for guys like me because I know there's a lot of us whose backs just don't hold up to the heavy strength training anymore? I mean I'm becoming a badass at Bulgarian SPlit squats and doing all kinds of hinge lift variations for deadlifts, and I even found I can substitute med ball throws and long jumps for olympic lifts. Is there a program out there that puts it all together for me with a nice bow on it as pretty as Starting STrength?

[belawyer]

oh and the other programming thing I learned the hard way is programming wise we need way more deloading. I can't hammer out a month straight of 3-5 rep routines even if I'm modifying with front squats, split squats, RDL's and such. It's almost like I have to just build up to one nice heavy week over a 4 week period and then go back and build up to it again over 4 weeks or so. Also, less sets of straight across (i.e. 5x5) and more sets of just working up to one nice heavy.

Anyways, it just seems like a crap ton of trial and error for us that are past our prime and seems like someone would have a manual or program or book out there for us to refer to. 99% of workout material available is geared at 20-35 year old athletes and/or beginners (i.e. those at any age that have just never lifted before). There's a serious lack of info for the 40s to 70s year olds that have spent most of their entire life working out.

[Nate9]

Once again, like I told you in the other thread you made, you need to read this: Back Pain and Back Strength | Mark Rippetoe

[Nadroj]

The article you posted is great, but it generally applies to people that have little prior lifting experience. I.e. that have weak backs. OP is specifically asking about ideas for people that have strong backs, but still have issues squatting and pulling.

Personally, I can pretty easily pull 500+ pounds off the floor with clean form. But my back hurts when I squat and deadlift, and has for the past 5 months. I get little tingly feelings and my heels go slightly numb. My left glute hurts. And my T12/L1 area feels badly.

I’ve tried training my way out of this issue. Lifting light. Carrying on as normal. Etc. The issue for me certainly doesn’t seem to be a “weak back”.

[belawyer]

Once again, like I told you in the other thread you made, you need to read this: Back Pain and Back Strength | Mark Rippetoe

Oh, I wasn't even getting alerts on that thread. I thought it died a long time ago...lol. Sorry about that.

Ok skimmed through the article and that is about the dumbest thing I've ever read and if that is really what Rip is saying I just lost a lot of respect for him. I"m he effing guy who kept pressing forward with squats and deadlifts regardless of what chiropractors told me and thought all those dumbasses talking about core and mobility were retarded and all I needed to do was squat and deadlift.

I mean I was to the point I could literally feel my back start to go every workout and I could edge it up right to before it blew and I was crawling out of the gym. What I mean by that is I could load the deadlifts and do my warmup sets. And then I could start my work loads and literally feel rep 1, good ok, rep 2, good ok, rep 3, oh little electric sensation on my spine I might want to stop here, rep4, ok I made it didn't hurt myself but really probably shouldn't do rep 5 and boom rep 5, backs done I'm crawling out of here today gonna need some help taking all these 45lbs off.

[belawyer]

The article you posted is great, but it generally applies to people that have little prior lifting experience. I.e. that have weak backs. OP is specifically asking about ideas for people that have strong backs, but still have issues squatting and pulling.

Personally, I can pretty easily pull 500+ pounds off the floor with clean form. But my back hurts when I squat and deadlift, and has for the past 5 months. I get little tingly feelings and my heels go slightly numb. My left glute hurts. And my T12/L1 area feels badly.

I’ve tried training my way out of this issue. Lifting light. Carrying on as normal. Etc. The issue for me certainly doesn’t seem to be a “weak back”.

Ok, yeah now that makes more sense. I could see where that might work for beginners. I'm like there's no doubt in my mind I could still go kill a starting strength workout with about 335lb squats and pull 350+ deadlift as far as the actual strength in my muscles but you are only as strong as your weakest link. And when the vertebrae in your low back are like no we aint letting you do that, then trust me they aint letting me do that and it doesn't matter how perfectly flat my spine is and perfect technique and form they just aint having it.

[belawyer]

The article you posted is great, but it generally applies to people that have little prior lifting experience. I.e. that have weak backs. OP is specifically asking about ideas for people that have strong backs, but still have issues squatting and pulling.

Personally, I can pretty easily pull 500+ pounds off the floor with clean form. But my back hurts when I squat and deadlift, and has for the past 5 months. I get little tingly feelings and my heels go slightly numb. My left glute hurts. And my T12/L1 area feels badly.

I’ve tried training my way out of this issue. Lifting light. Carrying on as normal. Etc. The issue for me certainly doesn’t seem to be a “weak back”.

Basically you get what I'm saying. So general advice I've got from older lifters is just keep doing what your good at and start dropping the things that hurt you. So maybe it's just wishful thinking there's some premade program for me that is as great as starting strengths workouts A and B but maybe I already have the template. It's basically legs/press/pull and I just have to figure out what works for me.

The other thing I was reading recently is that older guys really need way more deloading than previously. Long gone are our days of being able to do a 4-6 week strength cycle in the 3-5 rep range. It's more like build up over 6 weeks to maybe 1-2 week heavy and then start back over again. I think this has been part of my problem as well is I'll build up and then nail a week or two of 5 reps and I'm like hell yeah I got my old strength back and so I try to keep the momentum going for another couple weeks and my body is like screw this....lol.

It's all this little things I"m learning the hardway that I would have thought older lifters ahead of us would have mapped out a program template and philosophy to follow.

[Nadroj]

Ok, yeah now that makes more sense. I could see where that might work for beginners. I'm like there's no doubt in my mind I could still go kill a starting strength workout with about 335lb squats and pull 350+ deadlift as far as the actual strength in my muscles but you are only as strong as your weakest link. And when the vertebrae in your low back are like no we aint letting you do that, then trust me they aint letting me do that and it doesn't matter how perfectly flat my spine is and perfect technique and form they just aint having it.

I’m not sure yet what the solution is here for me. My suspicion is that I may fall inside of Rip’s 1/3 where surgery might achieve a good result due to a degeneration/bulge that’s treatable. However, perhaps that same issue can be solved with rest. I’m giving it a long time before I go get an MRI. In general, I do believe in squatting and deadlifting as long as you can. I hope to do so until I die.

[belawyer]

I’m not sure yet what the solution is here for me. My suspicion is that I may fall inside of Rip’s 1/3 where surgery might achieve a good result due to a degeneration/bulge that’s treatable. However, perhaps that same issue can be solved with rest. I’m giving it a long time before I go get an MRI. In general, I do believe in squatting and deadlifting as long as you can. I hope to do so until I die.

Chiropractors love any form of split squat or lunge and I have to agree with them I sure like the feeling of walking out of the gym and knowing I won't have trouble tying my shoes for the next week. You can even get a half way decent 5 rep load with dumbells if you go with that bulgarian split squat style I described above but I found it better to go ahead and use straps because otherwise it's like starting your workout with a farmer's walk finisher trying to hold two heavy ass dumbells through single leg sets of 5 (that's really like 10 reps along with the leg change on the bench can easily run you up over a minute for one set).

finding a good substitute for the traditional deadlift has been the most challenging. RDL's seem to work really well for several years but lately those aren't quite feeling right on my low back. It's kind of like how I was able to switch from back squat to Front squat for several years but then even loading up front squats started to be problematic. It's almost like I kind of move around and change positions and maybe it wears on a different pressure point on my disc but that eventually wears down after a while. I'm not sure if that is really what is going on between my vertebrae but feels like that.

My chiropractor did complement me that according to my MRI the good news is that it literally looks like every disc was deflated a nice and even 5psi all up and down my spine. So I viewed that as a good testament that at least my form must be good and I have nice even loading all up and down my spine...hahahah.

[belawyer]

The article you posted is great, but it generally applies to people that have little prior lifting experience. I.e. that have weak backs. OP is specifically asking about ideas for people that have strong backs, but still have issues squatting and pulling.

Pe

oh and back to the topic of this article. If that is right about what you are saying that it applies to people with little prior lifting experience that have low back pain I do think this is consistent with my experience. I do get more general low back pain when tend to get busy and not get my usual strength training in for like say a month. Like even if I just spend a weekend being a lazy ass and generally sendentary couch potato then my low back hurts in a general soreness way (not like the acute pain I'm refering to above from heavy squats/deadlifts). And then after this when I get back a few days in the gym of strength training then my low back feels much better. This is a completely different kind of general low back soreness than the topic of my original post.