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Thread: Programming advice

  1. #1
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    Default Programming advice

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    Hi there,



    Just wondering if I should perhaps consider moving onto an intermediate program such as TM. I know I could potentially milk a little more out of linear progression as I haven’t fully stalled and de-loaded yet (and perhaps that answers my own question) but I’ve noticed my lifts (specifically squats) are getting extremely taxing and I don’t feel like I’m fully recovering. This seems to be leading to shitty form that I’m not happy with, and trouble with feeling heavy and tired.

    I’m 27, height of 178cm with a weight of 180lbs. My 3x5 lifts are: squat 255, deadlift 330, bench 170, press 100, I also am doing weighted dips and rows, but I’ve ditched those to facilitate better recovery.

    On a diet of 2700cal per day, and seem to be steadily gaining .5kg a week. I’ve also just re-started Ice hockey on Sundays (I lift Tues, Thurs, and Sat) and I feel this might be partially why I’m not recovering fully.

    My 1rm seems to fall under the intermediate category for my weight in the tables in PPST (perhaps with the exception of my press) but just wondering if I should switch to TM now, or continue to grind it out

  2. #2
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    It sounds most likely that you need more calories and less interfering activities, but to really have a better handle on things, provide me with this info: Necessary Info for Programming Questions

    You included some of it here, but more detail is needed.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colt19 View Post
    g
    My 1rm seems to fall under the intermediate category for my weight in the tables in PPST...
    Do you put a lot of stock in those tables Michael Wolf? The rate at which you can stress/recover/adapt is what determines your status, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by samking7185 View Post
    Do you put a lot of stock in those tables Michael Wolf? The rate at which you can stress/recover/adapt is what determines your status, correct?
    I absolutely do not, Sam King, and I think my best expression of that is found here: https://startingstrength.com/resourc...ml#post1653774

    The tables are useful for estimating patterns you'll find in large populations. They are absolutely not useful - and in fact experience has shown they are a net negative due to this confusion - for an individual trying to figure out where he/she is in terms of training advancement.

    Like the BMI chart, basically.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post

    Just train intelligently and let the numbers fall where they fall.
    Starting Strength: Coming for the gains, stay for the philosophizers

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    Quote Originally Posted by samking7185 View Post
    Starting Strength: Coming for the gains, stay for the philosophizers
    Interesting you say that. I haven't commented on it explicitly, and this is far outside the scope of strength training programming, but I actually think the same concept I wrote about at the link is extremely important philosophically too, with ramifications that reach into many areas of life. Judging individuals by their "group identity" is to be avoided if at all possible. It may sometimes be necessary, as in the actuarial tables for car insurance rates, but is never ideal when we are able to judge the individual on his or her own merits. And hell, even car insurance has started to figure out ways to be more individual minded by taking the person's ticket/accident history into account instead of solely and completely boxing him into his demographic group.

    I will leave the more controversial (not here, mostly, but in much of society at large today) political implications of this unsaid but implied, but I believe the analogy is very strong and very important: individuals are individuals first. Yes, maybe the "average" man 25-40 gets to 275x5x3 on his LP, but that has absolutely positively and entirely NOTHING to do with what YOU will get to on your LP, even if you're a man 25-40. It has absolutely nothing to do with when you should switch to intermediate programming. It has absolutely nothing to do with what goals you should set, which to be honest, is mostly a waste of time during the Novice phase outside of just hitting frequent PRs. Once you know where you've settled after 6-9 months of training, and your squat is 285x5, then ya, trying to hit 315x5 within the next 6-9 months is probably reasonable, so you can have that "3 plate goal."

    But one of the dumbest, most frustrating, wastes of time I have seen as a coach is people who are so very far away from having any idea of where their potential is in the short or medium term, setting very specific goals that they put so much stock into, and get both unduly twisted if they don't hit or unduly excited if you do. Making PRs is the main thing for a while. Train the way that allows YOU to do that frequently, until you can't anymore. Don't set arbitrary goals that your completely inexperienced ass thinks are important or significant, based on what you think you should be able to do. Just add 5 lbs and do more sets of five, then triples or dubs or singles. This should last you a while. When you can't do that anymore, THEN - not before - will you have some context for figuring out what a specific goal to set in a timeframe might be.

    But the overarching point is that this is highly individual. 250-300x5 seems to be about average, I made 440x5 on my LP, and we've got an SSOC client who is scheduled to do 495x5x3 this week, and I have a client who truly and legitimately finished his LP at 185x5. I would have wasted a lot of time and energy celebrating 315 thinking "well, I've done all there is to do in the strength world now, guess I'll quit" if I'd been told I should only expect 275. That's obviously an exaggeration, but I'm sure I never would have gotten to 440, because I'd have rested on my laurels. My 185x5 client - who now squats mid 300s a few years later BTW - would have wasted lots of time and energy worrying about what was wrong or thinking harshly or poorly of himself for finishing so far behind it.

    NO. That's just wrong and stupid, on both ends. You are an individual, and group averages make no impact or difference whatsoever on anything you should do. You train like a Novice till you can't anymore. Then an appropriate intermediate program. And so on. As a wise man said:

    Just train intelligently and let the numbers fall where they fall.

    /endrant
    Last edited by Michael Wolf; 07-02-2018 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    Judging individuals by their "group identity" is to be avoided if at all possible.
    Couldn't agree more, especially when dealing with human factors. People are always talking about a new "diet" or a new training program as if everyone on earth responds the same to a given food/stimulus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    Starting Strength: Coming for the gains, stay for the philosophizers
    and FWIW, this is one of the reason I'm such a big fan of you all. It's refreshing to hear intelligent/scientific discussions regarding strength training.
    It would be easy to throw up some Bro-science headlines to get some clicks. All you SSC's do a great job of presenting clear, accurate, effective content. And for that I thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samking7185 View Post
    and FWIW, this is one of the reason I'm such a big fan of you all. It's refreshing to hear intelligent/scientific discussions regarding strength training.
    It would be easy to throw up some Bro-science headlines to get some clicks. All you SSC's do a great job of presenting clear, accurate, effective content. And for that I thank you.
    Glad you're here with us and enjoying, Sam. I am still amazed by how many people in this industry thrive based on their own physique or lifting numbers (or both) with zero demonstrated ability to help people not blessed with their natural talents/medicine cabinet, OR who thrive based on the ability to spout complex and scientific sounding jargon laced drivel that is either just totally wrong or total nonsense that literally cannot be translated into plain, jargon-less english. I may not be perfect at it, but I strive to not be or do any of those things, and that's one reason I was initially attracted to SS myself, back over 10 years ago.

    Of course, in my case, the average person doesn't want to emulate my physique anyway, so I can't exactly claim a high horse about that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colt19 View Post
    I’ve noticed my lifts (specifically squats) are getting extremely taxing and I don’t feel like I’m fully recovering. This seems to be leading to shitty form that I’m not happy with, and trouble with feeling heavy and tired.
    In the later parts of LP this is normal you got to realize form won’t be perfect on a new relative max effort set. At some point in your LP every new set of 5 is a new PR and it will be challenging and form will breakdown some.

    Eventually LP will become as much of a test of strength of will and mind as it is body.

    The first time I ran LP by myself I stopped about 80lb from where I am at now because it “felt” like it was to much. You don’t fail until you actually fail. Until then it’s like your own personal little war of internal fortitude.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Pauley View Post
    In the later parts of LP this is normal you got to realize form won’t be perfect on a new relative max effort set. At some point in your LP every new set of 5 is a new PR and it will be challenging and form will breakdown some.

    Eventually LP will become as much of a test of strength of will and mind as it is body.

    The first time I ran LP by myself I stopped about 80lb from where I am at now because it “felt” like it was to much. You don’t fail until you actually fail. Until then it’s like your own personal little war of internal fortitude.
    I didn't want to "name names" in case privacy was a concern, but now that he's posted here and messaged me directly, yes folks, Mr. Pauley here is coached by Karl Schudt at SSOC and is about to squat 495x5x3, which is pretty damn awesome if you ask me.

    But what did he do on his own? Well, 415x5 is pretty damn good. Most people would be thrilled with it. But in line with the discussion here, Rich is an individual, not defined by his membership in a group demographic, and as such, he needs to treat himself that way. It "feels hard" at 415, and hey, it's already over 100 lbs more than "he is supposed to be doing" based on his demographic so no need to go crazy here or anything. Guess it's time to shut the LP down and "do texas method" or move to 8 sets of 4 @7.238. Look, I'm not explicitly knocking either one of those things when they are appropriate. But as I've posted about before, the number of times I've seen people leave lots of weight on the table in LP by not working hard enough far, far outpaces the number of times I've seen people take LP/TM style training too far. The latter happens, and needs to be addressed, but if you need to speak in broad generalities to groups of people, you're going to address the much more common issues and concerns. Though I prefer to address all issues and sides, I have found that more people use that as an excuse to stop pushing too soon, and almost makes it worthwhile to just tell people to push and let the small % who would push anyway figure things out for themselves.

    Adding 80 lbs - and counting - to the bar on LP by nutting up and working harder and recovering better isn't peaking or delaying the onset of "the real training." It's a significant boost to your starting point when you're truly ready to begin the longer and slower road of long term gains. I don't know anyone who cares about this who wouldn't do terrible, unspeakable things* to have their baseline set of 5 squats be 80 lbs higher than it was when they started their more advanced programming.

    *hyperbole intended, obviously

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