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Thread: Progress on pressing movements

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by perman View Post
    No, understanding the details. Like beyond compliance and taste, how and why do individual responses vary? Tuscherer had some interesting anecdotes in his emerging strategies video (I highly recommend the long one, even if you're not into RPE-based training). Those anecdotes included different progress curves, such that different cycles and progressions would suit different people, and people needed different cycle lengths. Now this might all sound like unnecessary complexity, but it's kind of the opposite the way Tuscherer does emerging strategies cause it's based on simplifying the program as much as possible in order to tease out patters in order to design for the individual.

    Nuckols also had a good post about this, and how all the studies that try to find some optimal way of doing things often ignore all those outliers who respond differently from most people. If you are one of those outliers, you may be fooled into buying into some general principles that apply to most people that may not apply much to you..

    This post reeks of brainwashing. There's plenty of good science in the literature (along with all the crap), but Rip has got you convinced there's almost none of it with a simple capital letter...
    So you're saying the way Tucscherer manages programming is: he writes a microcycle as simple as possible and runs it until it stops working and extracts data from it. Is that new? Because that sounds familiar.

    I think people don't have as much problems with your programming recommendation. The fact that you addressed programming before addressing more fundamental things is where you're wrong. Even the coaches you named don't do that. Bryce Lewis, Helms, Tuscherer don't do that. On top of that you tried to argue with a general concept with bad data.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Stepic View Post
    So you're saying the way Tucscherer manages programming is: he writes a microcycle as simple as possible and runs it until it stops working and extracts data from it. Is that new? Because that sounds familiar.
    Concept isn't new no. I do think it's getting refined though.

    I don't think people were talking the same about individual responses before Tuscherer focused heavily on it almost every time he spoke for years. Rip has even said stuff like "The program works every time when applied correctly", thus categorically denying the possibility that outliers who the program won't work for. Which like, how could he even know? Answer is, he couldn't, it's PR-speak coming out of his ass..
    I think people don't have as much problems with your programming recommendation. The fact that you addressed programming before addressing more fundamental things is where you're wrong. Even the coaches you named don't do that. Bryce Lewis, Helms, Tuscherer don't do that. On top of that you tried to argue with a general concept with bad data.
    We were talking about programming though. Maybe this thread isn't explicitly abut it, but I think programming is the main thing people get wrong when it comes lacking progress in the press. People basically agree about sleep, diet, adherence, etc, even if indeed those things may be the non-existent OP's problem(s).

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by perman View Post
    I don't think people were talking the same about individual responses before Tuscherer focused heavily on it almost every time he spoke for years.
    Are you sure?
    Rip has even said stuff like "The program works every time when applied correctly", thus categorically denying the possibility that outliers who the program won't work for.
    What's the context here? Untrained lifters or advanced powerlifters?

    We were talking about programming though. Maybe this thread isn't explicitly abut it, but I think programming is the main thing people get wrong when it comes lacking progress in the prexss. People basically agree about sleep, diet, adherence, etc, even if indeed those things may be the non-existent OP's problem(s).
    Since it seems like you don't have any problems with phenomenology, how come 20 y'old who trained with "suboptimal" programming pressed 330 few weeks ago? Let me guess, it's because of layback, right?

    Did people who told you that programming is super important also have templates to sell?

  4. #94
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    I would very much like to see the issues in this thread debated by experienced coaches.
    Personally I’m not a great fan of RPE but I’ve had success bench pressing with higher volume percentage based programs.
    Quote Originally Posted by B Viking View Post
    What are your numbers sitting at, Satchy?
    I’d be curious too!

  5. #95
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    I was just thinking about this stuff a bit.
    Many years ago when I was a young punk I didn't have the privilege of having access to programs like starting strength, just bodybuilding programs eg Joe Weider inspired programs.

    Anyway I performed bodybuilding workouts religiously for 6 years, my gains had reached the rate of improvement that an intermediate to advanced lifter experiences ie bloody slow.
    My most strongest body part was abs, when I started I couldn't do 30, after around 18 months I was doing a single sets of 500 situps in the morning and night (1000 a day) with a 20 pound plate behind my head performed 7 days a week.
    These were performed as easily as walking ie I only stopped at 500 cause it was bloody boring.

    Obviously I wasn't in a state of overtraining so my abs were able to adapt with virtually no thought given to recovery time, ie there was none.

    Is it possible that different muscle groups need less recovery time, or was I a genetic freak?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Stepic View Post
    how come 20 y'old who trained with "suboptimal" programming pressed 330 few weeks ago?
    A somewhat specular question could be posed, one which I think is closer the OP original point: "How come some people with 'optimal' programming still can't even press BW?"
    Let me guess, is it because they don't stuff themselves with food?

    IPB

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlPrincipeBrutto View Post
    A somewhat specular question could be posed, one which I think is closer the OP original point: "How come some people with 'optimal' programming still can't even press BW?"
    Let me guess, is it because they don't stuff themselves with food?

    IPB
    You missed the point. I did not try to say that his programming is optimal, just secondary.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Stepic View Post
    Are you sure?
    I stated an opinion. That opinion is that people used to talk more in terms of better or worse programs generally, now they talk more about individual responses. You may disagree with that opinion. I have no empirical support for it beyond the conclusion I've drawn from my own anecdotal experience.
    What's the context here? Untrained lifters or advanced powerlifters?
    Novices, as defined by Rip. Which may or may not be untrained, but have not undergone a novice LP. The study done here on the results of LP for instance showed that 48% failed to complete 12 week due to an inability to keep increasing the load. Now the study showed most people had fantastic results, but it's that minority that drops out for unspecified reason that may contain your outliers. It's easy to dismiss those as lazy, doing the program wrong, undisciplined, whatever, but we know there are outliers to stimulus of other kinds like drugs in medicine. To expect strength training to act categorically uniform to strength training no matter what is intellectually lazy.
    Since it seems like you don't have any problems with phenomenology, how come 20 y'old who trained with "suboptimal" programming pressed 330 few weeks ago? Let me guess, it's because of layback, right?
    Yeah, I don't have any problems with phenomenology. That Rip has somehow made phenomenology, the act of extracting patterns from phenomenons, into a dirty word is quite absurd. Empirical science is the backbone of modern science and technology. Sure, add some reason and logic to that experience, but you should by no means discount the experience.

    As for the latter, are you saying I'm saying Chase cannot make good progress with SS-style programming? While I'm talking about highly individual responses? I think 20 year-old talented people who train hard have more slack and less requirements for programming optimality in order to make fantastic progress. Optimality is only required once you have ambitions beyond merely being exceptional, and also want to win competitions and win over everyone else.

    If you wanted to cite a good counter-example, you should have picked a champion. Like one of those numerous ones RTS has.

    Did people who told you that programming is super important also have templates to sell?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisza View Post
    I frequent both sites and the facts are most who are on the same playing field all struggle with the same issues and no one has found all the "magic" programming secrets. Lots of theory but most seem to end up doing something similar anyway in regards to programming.
    I was referring to the delusion that they were an actively oppressed minority who were just interested in civil discourse and debate, aggrieved victims of the terrible Aasgaard Company international right-wing corporate conglomerate.

    But, yeah, not surprised.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by perman View Post
    I stated an opinion. That opinion is that people used to talk more in terms of better or worse programs generally, now they talk more about individual responses. You may disagree with that opinion. I have no empirical support for it beyond the conclusion I've drawn from my own anecdotal experience.
    Any comprehensive book on training of any kind more or less mentions individual differences.
    Novices, as defined by Rip. Which may or may not be untrained, but have not undergone a novice LP. The study done here on the results of LP for instance showed that 48% failed to complete 12 week due to an inability to keep increasing the load. Now the study showed most people had fantastic results, but it's that minority that drops out for unspecified reason that may contain your outliers. It's easy to dismiss those as lazy, doing the program wrong, undisciplined, whatever, but we know there are outliers to stimulus of other kinds like drugs in medicine. To expect strength training to act categorically uniform to strength training no matter what is intellectually lazy.
    Are you suggesting we should approach a untrained lifter or early intermediate with an individualized approach? Based on what data? E1RM trends?

    If you wanted to cite a good counter-example, you should have picked a champion. Like one of those numerous ones RTS has.
    RTS is targeting a different demographic. I still do not understand what's your actual point here.

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