The statistical improbability of no champions

[Les Hahn]

Those are good points and you have more knowledge about elite lifters than I do. I can see where at some point to reach elite numbers, you have to have some decent programming.

Some of my thinking on this matter comes from first hand experience. My younger brother who basically has the same genetic makeup as I do, competed in powerlifting for a few years. He was using " special protein powder" and managed to rapidly get to a 450 bench and 600 Dl at 260 BW. He virtually had no structured programming and would just join in random workouts with other lifters. Injuries and life issues derailed him. Now off the protein and still at 225 bw, and using the same random training, he is sub 400DL, 275B and 300 S. A huge difference without the assistance. I also have had some genetically gifted friends that have great numbers without putting much thought into training or programming.

I think the extra "protein" helps for sure. This can put a lifter on par with someone else with superior genetics. But your brother is like my first example. With great genetics, "protein", or both, eventually you hit plateaus with random programming. Had he been training better, learning what really works for him, etc. he probably could have lifted even more. I know one super elite lifter on protein that worked his way up to a low 900's squat. He was following programming, but by experimenting with different programming and changing some aspects of his form, he was able to add over 100# to that lift. And this is someone with over 15 years of lifting experience.

[chrisza]

I think the extra "protein" helps for sure. This can put a lifter on par with someone else with superior genetics. But your brother is like my first example. With great genetics, "protein", or both, eventually you hit plateaus with random programming. Had he been training better, learning what really works for him, etc. he probably could have lifted even more. I know one super elite lifter on protein that worked his way up to a low 900's squat. He was following programming, but by experimenting with different programming and changing some aspects of his form, he was able to add over 100# to that lift. And this is someone with over 15 years of lifting experience.

I agree. I would estimate great programming could add 5-10% to a total and drugs 10-20%.

[A Schenck]

I agree. I would estimate great programming could add 5-10% to a total and drugs 10-20%.

If you think the difference between random programming and great programming is the difference between 405 and 445... why are you spending time in a tread debating programming at all?

[Les Hahn]

I agree. I would estimate great programming could add 5-10% to a total and drugs 10-20%.

It's hard to put percentages on it, because everyone is different. This can even mean how well people respond to "protein." Like the Dan Green example, he added over 100# to his conventional deadlift pretty late in his training career by changing his form and programming for that lift. There are also pretty heavily drug tested lifters that out total guys taking lots of stuff. They are probably clean, and even if they aren't, they are very limited to what they can take for compounds and dosages. Ray Williams in the USAPL (drug tested, even outside of meets) squats more than any non-tested lifter competing raw. So genetics plays a huge in role in conjunction with good programming, which you figure out over time as an advanced lifter.

[chrisza]

If you think the difference between random programming and great programming is the difference between 405 and 445... why are you spending time in a tread debating programming at all?

Sorry, I'm not quite following what your saying. My point is that someone with elite genetics, drugs or both can put up great totals despite poor programming. And yes, good programming will take them further. That is all. Don't want derail this any further.

[Brodie Butland]

Perhaps the better question is, what does the training HISTORY of these elite level athletes look like? At the advanced level, their programming will not resemble what us mere mortals do. But those people didn’t start at the advanced level...they started like all other schmucks (albeit probably naturally stronger). So the question you should be asking is, how did the elite lifters progress from novice to intermediate to advanced to world stage? If you investigate the training history, I suspect you’ll find a lot of stuff that looks very similar to SSLP and PP intermediate templates, which those lifters used until they eventually stopped working.