The statistical improbability of no champions

[Ivan Stepic]

Diddyin94, which program is part of your identity?

[Diddyin94]

Modifications to Texas Method to fit the individual lifter and their goalsbis not proof that Texas Method doesn't work, it's proof that the concepts detailed in Practical Programming do work. If the concepts of program individualization do not make sense to you, I'm sorry.

If I tell you the kid's name and the meet he won the national title at, you are going to scour his social media looking for hashtags and mentions of his program and coach and Starting Strength. You won't find that because he didn't do that. He was programmed to only press on light day and did bench press for volume day and intensity day. His volume day was programmed independently of his intensity say. His intensity day rep ranges were cycled. Nothing sexy about it. Pretty much as detailed in Practical Programming.

You know the results of all USAPL national meets are posted online right?

I appreciate your personal attacks. I have been coached by an SSC for a year plus, went to the seminar, been an active member on the form for almost 6 years, read the books and articles. I appreciate your assumption that I am not familiar with the material.

You understand that a framework that can be infinitely modified at random from person-to-person is actually just random phenomena right? Not an actual framework. If I run Texas method/HLM and change the frequency, volume, and intensity I am just grasping at straws not a systemic evaluation of training--even if the variables I change are the same. Just spinning the monte carlo until something hits.

[Joe Jaloszynski]

I made an assumption of the level of your understanding based on the quality of your comments in this thread.

I don't understand your comment regarding modifying a program to suit then individual lifter. I do not operate with the mindset that the templates in Practical Programming cannot be modified. My understanding that the expectation is that they do get modified on a lifter by lifter basis.

[bracemaker]

I was listening to a podcast recently where the host was talking about the strength of gorillas and they said “we will never know how strong a gorilla really could be as they have never ran starting strength”.

While humorous in nature it got me to thinking for people that are objectively strong (e.g world champs, top tier lifters) NONE of them use starting strength based programming, or for that matter starting strength coaches’ programming. I don’t see how this could be statistically possible. Starting strength is the best selling strength training book of all time. The organization says that the programming works for everyone who tries it and has a rather large community and following, so you would think there would be some instances of some insane lifters here.

Any thoughts on why this is?

So, your wondering why top level, elite lifters around the world are not following novice or intermediate style programming? And I'm pretty sure SS does not have a patent on the advanced programming periodized techniques described in PP, which most elite level people use. Have you thought of the fact that most elite level lifters started off pretty strong? They likely never found starting strength, or didn't need it once they did. Most probably lifted on their own or followed something else for years before they had heard of it.

[wiigelec]

Diddyin94,

1) What are the defining characteristics of "champion-style" programming?

2) What are the main differences between "champion-style" and "startingstrength-style" programming?

3) What is it about "startingstrenght-style" programming that make it unappealing and/or ineffective for champion lifters?

[wiigelec]

Diddyin94,

a couple more questions:

4) What percentage of people who train with barbells use "startingstrength-style" programming?

5) What percentage of people who train with barbells participate in powerlifting meets?

6) What percentage of people who participate in powerlifting meets are champions?

7) What plays a bigger role in becoming champion: training methodology or genetics?

8) What is more important for the vast majority of people who train with barbells, realizing individual potential at some level or being a powerlifting champion?

And last but not least:

9) What difference does it make, if it indeed does turn out to be true through today to the forever future of human existence, no powerlifting champion ever uses "startingstrenght-style" programming?

[Jeff LC]

I was listening to a podcast recently where the host was talking about the strength of gorillas and they said “we will never know how strong a gorilla really could be as they have never ran starting strength”.

While humorous in nature it got me to thinking for people that are objectively strong (e.g world champs, top tier lifters) NONE of them use starting strength based programming, or for that matter starting strength coaches’ programming. I don’t see how this could be statistically possible. Starting strength is the best selling strength training book of all time. The organization says that the programming works for everyone who tries it and has a rather large community and following, so you would think there would be some instances of some insane lifters here.

Any thoughts on why this is?

Starting strength is a Novice Linear Progression - it is designed to take untrained individuals (read: novices), and add muscle and strength every workout for as long as the person is able to do that.. eventually, after a few months, he or she is no longer able to do that at which point the person advances into more advanced types of programming, depending on the goals of the individual.

It's literally called "Starting Strength"

[Jeff LC]

I guess we could be more crisp in defining Starting Strength style intermediate programing. I am obviously not referring to SSNLP.

Broadly, any programming done under a starting strength coach or unmodified programs as described in PPST.

I mean you sort of prove my point with the examples you give.

Joseph Pena tags Jordan & Austin in that post and was coached by Austin Barkai at one time. (Not an SSC).
Rori is an RTS athlete and coached by Mike Tuscherer (Not an SSC)
I don't know where you got Dan Green from. I cannot find any record of him saying that. Please link. I looked at his training on instagram after his meet and most recent injury it did not resemble HLM (not 1 5x5 in the last year on his page).
Who is this bench presser?

The three examples you gave have all chosen programming outside of the org. Why is this?

No elite lifters run any unmodified programs. Programming becomes more individualized the more advanced the lifter is. Starting strength is designed to take untrained individuals and make them mildly strong, to the point where they can't add weight every single workout. From there, people branch off into whatever type of programming suites them.

[Jeff LC]

I guess we could be more crisp in defining Starting Strength style intermediate programing. I am obviously not referring to SSNLP.

Broadly, any programming done under a starting strength coach or unmodified programs as described in PPST.

I mean you sort of prove my point with the examples you give.

Joseph Pena tags Jordan & Austin in that post and was coached by Austin Barkai at one time. (Not an SSC).
Rori is an RTS athlete and coached by Mike Tuscherer (Not an SSC)
I don't know where you got Dan Green from. I cannot find any record of him saying that. Please link. I looked at his training on instagram after his meet and most recent injury it did not resemble HLM (not 1 5x5 in the last year on his page).
Who is this bench presser?

The three examples you gave have all chosen programming outside of the org. Why is this?

PPST literally explains that none of the basic intermediate templates work for advanced lifters, and even goes into explaining what types of directions advanced lifters can go in - but doesnt actually lay out an actual template program, because there is no such thing for an advanced lifter.

There is not, starting strength advanced program. it deoesn't exist.

[Jeff LC]

Actually no that is not my point at all. I would have no expectation that any top level lifter would ever switch their program/framework.

My thought is, if you have 10,000 (probably more) people running an LP every year for the last 8 years. Wouldn't eventually some of those people who follow the intermediate pipeline eventually become top level lifters. I am concerned about the progression of people through the Starting Strength framework and pipeline not the decisions of people once they are elite.

So you're claiming that of the thousands of elite power lifters, none of them ran a simple linear model of full body compound movements, 3 times a week, adding weight every time? between strong lifts, starting strength, and the other duplicate programs out there, you happen to know, that of every single successful power lifter, none of them ran these style programs when they were beginners? And none of them ran a simple weekly progression of heavy days, and lighter volume days, when they were intermediates?