Recomp first then do GOMAD

[Joe Pears]

However I would like to say I appreciate the general sentiment the article is putting forth, but as I am starting a strength program, I think the message is not really applicable to me, since I am not negating strength training and focusing on circuits or any of that other over marketed nonsense.

Also, if you look at the guys who are big lifters in the MMA

DC
Overeem
Sylvia
Sapp
Lombard
Jacare
Rog
King Mo


what do they all ahve in common? they lose because they gas and can't keep going.


Now look at the fighters who place alot of emphasis on cardio

Nick Diaz
Nate Diaz
Cain
GSP
Melendez
Guida
Cruz


They beat people and their conditioning is a big part of it. They can as Rogan says "drag you into deep water and make you swim with them"

[veryhrm]

dude, just do whatever you want to do. The only thing i would ask is the you don't go around telling people you did Starting Strength or are doing Starting Strength.

[Joe Pears]

so if I do SS but do some sprints on off days while eating at a caloric surplus, I am not doing the program?

Who exactly is doing the program?

[veryhrm]

so if I do SS but do some sprints on off days while eating at a caloric surplus, I am not doing the program?

Who exactly is doing the program?

The issues are:
1) 2 months of SS is a short time. SS is a fast progression but it's not instant. If you had a coach to correct your form every workout and either you used to lift and thus possibly can progress by somewhat larger jumps for longer or you lift now and thus can start relatively heavy then maybe you could exhaust SS in 2 months. But unless 1 or more of those things are true in 2 months you'll maybe get to like a 200lbs squat.

2) doing conditioning 3 times a week will make even the previous result less likely. You're young so maybe you have the recovery capacity, but chances of getting run down and/or injury go up and the chance of a perfect 2 month run go down even more.

3) Eating at surplus, by definition, means you'll eat enough to gain weight.

So. I think there's a significant chance that you'll end up with a testimonial like this: "I did SS and i only got to 200lbs squat and i got to 200lbs bw and over 30%bf and fucked up my back/knees."

Also, you are significantly misunderstanding or distorting the t-nation article. Let me quote:

For novice athletes, or for recruits with many other things to learn, strength training improves this aspect of fitness as efficiently as conditioning programs that take much more time and produce no useful strength improvement.

This may surprise some of you who think that all people must do conditioning to be fit. And I agree that past a certain point in the development of strength, some Prowler work on a regular basis is beneficial, but remember, we're talking about novices, people with no strength base, and for whom a strength base improves all aspects of performance.

The Prowler is the finest conditioning device ever invented, I assure you. Nothing else approaches its effectiveness. But for these people, barbell training works better. Getting their squat up profoundly affects their Prowler capacity, but pushing the Prowler doesn't have the potential to build strength the way barbell training obviously does. The Prowler interferes with a novice's recovery from strength training, and again, strength is by far the more useful adaptation.

So the Prowler and all other conditioning activities can wait until after the strength base is developed. It only takes a few months to get much stronger, unless you fuck up and interfere with the process by losing sight of the priority.

To recap:
If you're really serious about this eat according to Jordan's "to be a beast" article (case 3 fluffy novice), ditch the conditioning (or at least limit it to once a week on Saturdays) and plan to do SS for 3 - 4 months (or at least until you get close to the 300s on the squats).

Do you already do the LBBS and/or have you deadlifted before? What were your max lifts? How long since you lifted and/or otherwise worked out? How active are you currently?

[Joe Pears]

OK, this actually makes sense and I appreciate that you actually broke this down well. I actually kinda see your point.

I am going to follow this advice, My main worry about not doing conditioning now is doing SS and then losing all my strength gains from having to do more conditioning later to get in shape for training. However thinking this over, it seems like I am worrying over nothing.

Yes I have liften on and off, with little success due to lack of knowledge.

My biggest deadlift is 120kg raw no straps perfect form for a double with a pause between reps. 264.5lbs for you guys across the pond. I think I was 175ish when I deadlifted that.

My biggest squat was 75kg 3x5 but I was still struggling with a high bar squat and I think I could progress a lot on those numbers.

My bench sucks, my upper body has always been alot weaker than my lower half. I think I got like two reps at 45kg on overhead press and I was done, My upper back is non existant and I have like 12 inch arms.

I think I am quite genetically gifted leg wise, when I was 12 I did triathlon and my quads were bigger than both of my grown athletic brothers. My posterior chain is alot weaker than my quads.

By the way, I am not going to stop SS after two months, I don't know if I gave that impression. I just meant after two months on SS i would start doing martial arts as well and will be upping my calories and maybe dropping to two days a week on an SS format to avoid continually stalling/ avoid recovery problems.

[veryhrm]

Well, that you used to DL w/ good form is a good thing. It means that you have good lower back control and are able to keep it in extension both there and on the LB squats. That's a point of form that causes problems for a fair number of people so it's good you won't have to deal with it.


The issue w/ your plan of continuing SS into the bjj / muay thai is that actually the last third of the SS linear progression is when you really start pushing your body's recovery ability. So in that respect if you REALLY can only take 2 months off (though it may not really be practical) it would be better to do bjj during your first month or two of SS, then dropping bjj and doing just SS for another two months until you finish out novice and maybe advanced novice and then adding the MA back in while shifting your lifting to some sort of maintenance or slow program (or not lift at all for a couple of months) until you take another "off-season" to do a strength cycle.

Another option if you/your school/instructor is up for it is to do some light bjj (i.e. technique work w/o the full strength sparring and conditioning ) for a month or two while you finish out SS. Or maybe do just 1 full bjj workout a week and 1 or 2 light bjj workouts.

Anyway, since you're in a rush make sure you have your microweights ready for your press / BP. The DLs, presses and chins/pullups will take care of your upper back. Don't worry about that.

[Bar-barian]

I started SS at around 30% BF. After 2 months of SS and trying to up my protein, I lost about 8 pounds. I increased my squat by about 150 pounds my press by 35 my bench by 70 and my dead by 130 pounds.
Like you I had strong legs and weak upper body (actually long arms and torso). Without trying I gained 6-7 pounds if muscle and lost 15 pounds if fat. Zero cardio.
You just need to prioritize. What's more useful in MMA? Doubling your dead lift in two months or improving your endurance?
It's very, very hard to cut weight, while gaining strength while improving conditioning. I would concentrate solely on improving your strength for 2 months. Then, once you figure out what getting stronger week to week feels like, add in cardio OR cut back in calories.
Basically:
1. Push yourself to improve in strength only ehile getting to know your unique recovery time and nutritional needs.
2. When you have that figured out, add one more variable and monitor your recovery and progress. If progress stalls, you'll know why. Then readjust.
3. Then when satisfied with your progress, add the third element, probably cutting calories. Again monitor recovery and progress closely.

Remember that someone who can DL 500 can push a prowler much more forcefully than someone who DLs 250. Get strong then get conditioned them make weight because strength is the most general adaptation.

[Joe Pears]

Thanks guys.

Will scrap the cardio. Might just take the dog for long walks.

I appreciate the intervention

[Crockett]

My main worry about not doing conditioning now is doing SS and then losing all my strength gains from having to do more conditioning later to get in shape for training.

You can lose fat without losing strength. Other posters have linked to a blog post from Jordan Feigenbaum. I am a nutrition client of his, and I've lost 23 lbs. in the last 17 weeks while getting slightly stronger. I take it that nearly all of the weight lost was fat. Now, that said, you're a novice lifter, and so in fact, your situation will be even easier than mine (I'm intermediate: squatting 315 for 3x5, e.g.). You should be able to lose fat while getting significantly stronger. And this is precisely the 'example 3' (or whichever is the fluffy one) from the blog post. Doubly, your situation is better because you are younger. I, and the guy in example 3, are in our thirties.

So, if your worry was that you'd have to get lean first and then get strong, 'example 3' suggests you can do them at the same time. If your worry was that you'd have to get fat to get strong, and then weak to get lean, my own case shows that to be false. I did get fat to get strong-er (I'm not strong), but I got lean without getting weak again.

[Joe Pears]

You can lose fat without losing strength. Other posters have linked to a blog post from Jordan Feigenbaum. I am a nutrition client of his, and I've lost 23 lbs. in the last 17 weeks while getting slightly stronger. I take it that nearly all of the weight lost was fat. Now, that said, you're a novice lifter, and so in fact, your situation will be even easier than mine (I'm intermediate: squatting 315 for 3x5, e.g.). You should be able to lose fat while getting significantly stronger. And this is precisely the 'example 3' (or whichever is the fluffy one) from the blog post. Doubly, your situation is better because you are younger. I, and the guy in example 3, are in our thirties.

So, if your worry was that you'd have to get lean first and then get strong, 'example 3' suggests you can do them at the same time. If your worry was that you'd have to get fat to get strong, and then weak to get lean, my own case shows that to be false. I did get fat to get strong-er (I'm not strong), but I got lean without getting weak again.

Yeah that was my worry, like I say I am not that clued in to the whole lifting/eating game yet so I am still sorta figuring things out.

What really had me worrying about conditioning was, my motorbike broke down yesterday and I had to cycle about 1/4 mile to work, an that quarter mile let me keeling over dry heaving nd sweating buckets. It was pathetic. I am so out of shape it is unreal.

It just seemed counter intuitive to not worry about being moderately in shape. I had it in my head to lift weights and sprint hills as jim wendler recommends. His Tnation articles recommend running everyday or every other day. Lots of 40 yard dash type stuff.

However, I will not do the cardio and focus on lifting for the time being.