Would you include the bench press in the program if bros weren't so concerned with it

[confused_enthusiast]

I'm just wondering whether the bench press really is necessary for overall strength development or it's only included in the program for the sole purpose of making it more appealing to the general population who think strong bench=strong bro.

Why is the bench press important? Is there another exercise which you'd rather have included in the routine, Mr Rippetoe?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Read the book.

[Chris Lippke]

I'm just wondering whether the bench press really is necessary for overall strength development

It is.

or it's only included in the program for the sole purpose of making it more appealing to the general population who think strong bench=strong bro.

It's attractiveness to the GP may be an artifact of its existence and being included in the program, but it's not the reason why it's in the program.

Why is the bench press important?

It's very effective for developing upper body strength because it allows you to move a lot of weight. Moving a lot of weight = strength = moving a lot of weight. Read the book. Search for "art of manliness bench press" on the google.

Is there another exercise which you'd rather have included in the routine, Mr Rippetoe?

If there was another exercise he'd rather have included in the routine, it'd have been included in the routine.

[OZ-USF-UFGator]

I suspect the loaded dip is a very close second and would make a fine substitute as long as depth was full and consistent. You can press a hell of a lot of weight using the dip.

[Charlie Davies]

I suspect the loaded dip is a very close second and would make a fine substitute as long as depth was full and consistent. You can press a hell of a lot of weight using the dip.

If I were writing a novice program and publishing it for the world to attempt w/o a coach, I'd include bench over dips.

1) I think the number of injured shoulders from bad form or bad luck would be lower for bench.
2) Many, many beginners cannot do an unassisted bodyweight dip at first. Assisted dip machines are expensive and not present in garage/basement gyms.
3) Consistent depth is harder to achieve w/o a coach on dip.
4) Tricky to microload, as bodyweight fluctuates several pounds from day to day.

But I agree that weighted dips are an excellent lift for those whose shoulders tolerate them.

And they can be very much trained like a primary lift, as opposed to just an accessory exercise.

[blues]

If I were writing a novice program and publishing it for the world to attempt w/o a coach, I'd include bench over dips.

1) I think the number of injured shoulders from bad form or bad luck would be lower for bench.
2) Many, many beginners cannot do an unassisted bodyweight dip at first. Assisted dip machines are expensive and not present in garage/basement gyms.
3) Consistent depth is harder to achieve w/o a coach on dip.
4) Tricky to microload, as bodyweight fluctuates several pounds from day to day.

But I agree that weighted dips are an excellent lift for those whose shoulders tolerate them.

And they can be very much trained like a primary lift, as opposed to just an accessory exercise.

Very well said.

Weighted dips used to be my strongest upper body movement, now I can no longer do a proper ROM with the movement due to the vagaries of age / injury and had to drop them from my routines. Totally agree that they are a great movement for those that can (still) do them properly with a full (no cheating) ROM.

The bench / dumbbell bench is much kinder to my shoulders these days.

[SteveL]

If I were writing a novice program and publishing it for the world to attempt w/o a coach, I'd include bench over dips.

1) I think the number of injured shoulders from bad form or bad luck would be lower for bench.
2) Many, many beginners cannot do an unassisted bodyweight dip at first. Assisted dip machines are expensive and not present in garage/basement gyms.
3) Consistent depth is harder to achieve w/o a coach on dip.
4) Tricky to microload, as bodyweight fluctuates several pounds from day to day.

But I agree that weighted dips are an excellent lift for those whose shoulders tolerate them.

And they can be very much trained like a primary lift, as opposed to just an accessory exercise.

This is really interesting. Years ago I tore my rotator cuff doing weighted dips. I've not ever had shoulder issues doing the BP but have with the dip which I why I'm just not going to do them anymore it's simply not worth the risk.

[Charlie Davies]

I've had some severe shoulder problems, with gradual onset, of unknown cause.

But during the time they developed, I was doing weighted dips. They are on my "suspect list" along with weighted chins, bench, and LB squat.

I'm actually planning to try dips again tomorrow, as an assistance exercise, after a really good year of gradual shoulder recovery. But I'll be paranoid about them.

I will *not* ever try ring dips again. Screw that exercise. Unless you are a competing gymnast, doing dips on an unstable base is just insanely risky for shoulder health.

[KangaJoo]

What's funny is I'm pretty sure Mark has said that before starting strength was really figured out, he used to only have people bench press during the novice phase. The press was only added in as a way to give people's shoulders a break while still doing upper body work each workout.