Brachialis & shoulder pain

[Chris Lippke]

I used to have such pain and the thumbs around didn't really help me either. Still, it may be worth trying in your case. For me, it just led to higher elbows, which, I think, contributes to the root cause of the pain.

Can we get some recent video of your LBBS, please?

Tom has mentioned this in your form checks (yes, I be creepin' on ya):
"At the top, you are in mild flexion. Your upper back is round and your lower back is a little, too. I would like to see you drop your elbows and stand up a little straighter."

With this in mind, something that has recently helped me with the elbow pain (in addition to pressing/bench pressing first in my workouts like you're doing) is to really get that thoracic extension in place at the top. This allows you to drop your elbows. As such, I don't really like the "drop your elbows" cue without "chest up and out" mentioned first; the elbows dropping usually follows naturally. Puff your chest out but keep your chin tucked with that imaginary tennis ball. This may take some time and analyzing video of yourself to really get it when loaded with working weight.

Sure, your elbows were low in the video, but your arms may have been carrying a lot of the weight if your grip was too wide (just tossing out ideas). This thoracic extension helps get that "meat shelf" really tight so you can bring your grip narrower while also keeping the elbows down.

Picture:
Left: me in April with too high elbows, not concentrating on thoracic extension
Right: me in Sept with elbows closer where they need to be, thoracic extension now ingrained as part of my racking routine

Either way, hopefully something here can help. The pain sucks.

derp.jpg

[timelinex]

So I did squats yesterday and overall I'm still not sure where I stand.

I did the thumbs around grip and while I think it helped prevent the shoulder pain, I did feel alot of pressure on my wrists and some on my elbow still. It definitely still hurt just in different ways. Instead of brachialis/shoulder, I feel a little tennis elbow and wrist pain. Maybe it's because my arm is still sensitive. Maybe my wrists will get used to it (it didn't hurt the wrists, but definitely felt alot of pressure, even with wraps). Overall it still didn't feel great, but maybe it's because I need my arm to cool off a little.

Chris, Its funny you should mention my thoracic extension. This was one of the other things I was hellbent on working on yesterday. Then I realized/remembered why I hunch over. At the lighter weights, the thoracic extension feels GREAT and I DO feel more solid. But as the weight gets heavier, there is just no way I can do the thoracic extension because the bar just literally slides down my back then. I tried this again yesterday. Thats why I hunch over at the top. To keep it on the shelf. This lack of really solid shelf is also probably why my arm gets so badly inflamed. Kind of thinking about it, my arm REALLY started getting inflamed around the same time Tom mentioned the extension and I tried standing up straighter. So if it's not just a coincidence, that could be the straw that broke the camels back.

My arms are indeed carrying alot of the weight, one way or another. 225LB feels fine, the bar holds steady, I can start with good thoracic extension and nothing really hurts. 285lb and everything feels wrong. As I mentioned, I can start with thoracic extension, but then my arms are begging for mercy because they are literally holding the weight from moving. It's probably so intense from the combination of being at my flexibility limit and then applying a ton of force on it.

I tried moving the bar around to see if there is a better shelf, but outside of the "on top of the traps" high bar position, there is none. The bar is very comfortable in the spot below my scapula, but obviously it does start sliding at heavier weights.

So I think if I figure this out, I will be able to figure out my arm pain.

At this point, I don't know what to do.

[JHG]

My arms are indeed carrying alot of the weight, one way or another. 225LB feels fine, the bar holds steady, I can start with good thoracic extension and nothing really hurts. 285lb and everything feels wrong. As I mentioned, I can start with thoracic extension, but then my arms are begging for mercy because they are literally holding the weight from moving. It's probably so intense from the combination of being at my flexibility limit and then applying a ton of force on it.

I tried moving the bar around to see if there is a better shelf, but outside of the "on top of the traps" high bar position, there is none. The bar is very comfortable in the spot below my scapula, but obviously it does start sliding at heavier weights.

So I think if I figure this out, I will be able to figure out my arm pain.

At this point, I don't know what to do.

If the bar is sliding down then it is positioned too low on your back, the same is true if the bar is position too high (i.e. it will roll up to your neck).

As you have pointed out, you need to figure out the optimal position to place the bar on your back so that your back is carrying the load and your arms are merely stabilizing the bar on your back. Perhaps resetting the load for your work sets on the squat and adding more warm up sets will do some good. This will serve as practice to (a) find and secure the optimal bar position on your back, (b) practice maintaining thoracic extension throughout the movement, (c) relieve the pressure off your arms and learn how to use your arms and grip to only stabilize the position of the bar without carrying the load, and (d) allow you to work your way back up to 285 pain free and with better technique.

This is a work in progress for all of us, you're not alone. Don't get discouraged. Do your best and work with a coach when you can.

[timelinex]

If the bar is sliding down then it is positioned too low on your back, the same is true if the bar is position too high (i.e. it will roll up to your neck).

As you have pointed out, you need to figure out the optimal position to place the bar on your back so that your back is carrying the load and your arms are merely stabilizing the bar on your back. Perhaps resetting the load for your work sets on the squat and adding more warm up sets will do some good. This will serve as practice to (a) find and secure the optimal bar position on your back, (b) practice maintaining thoracic extension throughout the movement, (c) relieve the pressure off your arms and learn how to use your arms and grip to only stabilize the position of the bar without carrying the load, and (d) allow you to work your way back up to 285 pain free and with better technique.

This is a work in progress for all of us, you're not alone. Don't get discouraged. Do your best and work with a coach when you can.

Does it look like the bar is in the wrong position in my videos? I have been to an SSC in the past and he checked the bar position and confirmed it was right below the ridge of my scapula. Right now it sits below my "big" top part of traps. Any higher and it will be on that muscle. I can't imagine being on those big muscles will be stable. I can take pictures if it will help.

[timelinex]

Here is a picture of the imprint the bar left at the SSC when he confirmed it was in the correct location:

ssc back.jpg

and here is a screenshot of where it is from a recent set:

now.jpg

Looks the same to me?

[JHG]

Does it look like the bar is in the wrong position in my videos? I have been to an SSC in the past and he checked the bar position and confirmed it was right below the ridge of my scapula. Right now it sits below my "big" top part of traps. Any higher and it will be on that muscle. I can't imagine being on those big muscles will be stable. I can take pictures if it will help.

Truthfully, the bar position looks good to me, but again, I'm not a SSC (yet), so I defer opinion to an existing SSC. My suggestions are made based on your report of continued arm pain. I empathize with you as I have tight shoulders as well and this took me a while to manage. I still have this pain on occasion when lifting heavy and believe that using specialty bars (i.e. SSB and camber bar) from time to time to give the shoulders and arms a break is a good idea.

But I maintain that if the bar is sliding down it likely moved from your original position during the set, at least that is the only plausible explanation I can provide given the information at hand and your report of continued symptoms.

[timelinex]

Truthfully, the bar position looks good to me, but again, I'm not a SSC (yet), so I defer opinion to an existing SSC. My suggestions are made based on your report of continued arm pain. I empathize with you as I have tight shoulders as well and this took me a while to manage. I still have this pain on occasion when lifting heavy and believe that using specialty bars (i.e. SSB and camber bar) from time to time to give the shoulders and arms a break is a good idea.

But I maintain that if the bar is sliding down it likely moved from your original position during the set, at least that is the only plausible explanation I can provide given the information at hand and your report of continued symptoms.

So I was playing around with a pvc pipe I have at the office (for shoulder disconnects) and had a thought. Maybe I been focusing on the wrong variable to hold up the bar? When I play around with my grip and bar placement, nothing improves the lower backs ability to hold the bar in place (when I apply a little downward force on it). HOWEVER, if I raise my elbows enough, the bar ends up sitting on my rear delts on the shoulders. Then it is SOLID and absolutely does not move. Thats funny though, because it seems like its the OPPOSITE advice as I got from the SSC's. They say that I need to work on getting my elbows down.

As a side note, I noticed that moving my grip in very narrow does the same thing even with lowered elbows. But the only reason I can do it with the pvc pipe is its thin and flexible (I'm bending it over my back to get them close enough). So I can see how the advice on narrowing your grip would help stabilize the bar. But the advice is moot when my shoulders don't allow that narrow of a grip and I doubt they ever will.

I haven't tried this with alot of weight on a real bar yet. Any comments or concerns with raising my elbows further than I have them now?

[Pramod Reddy]

I had the same pain in my brachialis when my squat work sets passed 225. I spent a lot of time looking for a way to make it go away and read all posts on the forum describing the issue. Finally figured it out & haven't had the pain in the last few months and I am now up to 300 for my work sets. Take it for what it is worth and see if it helps you.

The fix is a combination of narrow grip width & upper back tightness. I tried that for a while & it didn't do anything, until I figured out the following cues.

1) Take a narrow grip on the bar - same width as a bench press(about 24-26 inches between index fingers) - with thumbs over the bar and keep the wrists straight at all times.
2) Now, instead of trying to get under the bar by stretching your pecs/brachialis or bending your wrists: Try to pinch your shoulder blades back and down, just like how you set up for bench press.
You should be getting under the bar by doing this primarily, not by over stretching your pecs/shoulders or raising your elbows too much.
3) Once you get the bar touching your upper back just below the spine of the scapular where it is stable - bring your chest up, like you would while you are setting up for the deadlift. Keep this chest up position and it'll help you maintain thoracic extension under heavy weights.

Steps 2 & 3 will keep your elbows by your side & tighten up your upper back to create the stable shelf for the bar.

That's it! Once I made a habit of setting up with these 3 steps, never had any kind of arm pain with squats.

[JHG]

So I was playing around with a pvc pipe I have at the office (for shoulder disconnects) and had a thought. Maybe I been focusing on the wrong variable to hold up the bar? When I play around with my grip and bar placement, nothing improves the lower backs ability to hold the bar in place (when I apply a little downward force on it). HOWEVER, if I raise my elbows enough, the bar ends up sitting on my rear delts on the shoulders. Then it is SOLID and absolutely does not move. Thats funny though, because it seems like its the OPPOSITE advice as I got from the SSC's. They say that I need to work on getting my elbows down.

As a side note, I noticed that moving my grip in very narrow does the same thing even with lowered elbows. But the only reason I can do it with the pvc pipe is its thin and flexible (I'm bending it over my back to get them close enough). So I can see how the advice on narrowing your grip would help stabilize the bar. But the advice is moot when my shoulders don't allow that narrow of a grip and I doubt they ever will.

I haven't tried this with alot of weight on a real bar yet. Any comments or concerns with raising my elbows further than I have them now?

The obvious variable here, as you acknowledged, is the significant difference in load and flexibility of the pvc pipe compared to a heavy barbell, so I wouldn’t advise the raised elbow position.

Alan Thrall made a good instructional squat video that should help answer your concerns: YouTube

[timelinex]

I definitely appreciate you guys chiming in and helping me work through it. If you have any further advice I'm always open to suggestions.

It seems like most of the fixes involve the equivalent of telling the guy that can't touch his toes to just extend more towards his toes. Yea, if I could extend more, I wouldn't have the problem of not being able to touch my toes!

I had the same pain in my brachialis when my squat work sets passed 225. I spent a lot of time looking for a way to make it go away and read all posts on the forum describing the issue. Finally figured it out & haven't had the pain in the last few months and I am now up to 300 for my work sets. Take it for what it is worth and see if it helps you.

The fix is a combination of narrow grip width & upper back tightness. I tried that for a while & it didn't do anything, until I figured out the following cues.

1) Take a narrow grip on the bar - same width as a bench press(about 24-26 inches between index fingers) - with thumbs over the bar and keep the wrists straight at all times.
2) Now, instead of trying to get under the bar by stretching your pecs/brachialis or bending your wrists: Try to pinch your shoulder blades back and down, just like how you set up for bench press.
You should be getting under the bar by doing this primarily, not by over stretching your pecs/shoulders or raising your elbows too much.
3) Once you get the bar touching your upper back just below the spine of the scapular where it is stable - bring your chest up, like you would while you are setting up for the deadlift. Keep this chest up position and it'll help you maintain thoracic extension under heavy weights.

Steps 2 & 3 will keep your elbows by your side & tighten up your upper back to create the stable shelf for the bar.

That's it! Once I made a habit of setting up with these 3 steps, never had any kind of arm pain with squats.

"24-26 inches between index fingers"................ I literally can't even get into the high bar squat position with my hands that narrow. I'm not talking about it being painful getting into the position. I'm saying I can't even get close. (I can't do behind the back presses or pull downs for example)

I have tried the narrow grip thing. I do feel that it tightens up my back and probably does ease the pain that is caused by carrying the weight with my arms. But the problem only changes the pain from being centralized around the shoulder to the elbow instead (or maybe the other way around, i forget). Even then, I can't get too narrow. The absolute most narrow I can get after a bunch of stretching is an inch or two outside the ring on an Olympic bar (The rings are ~32 inches I believe). Not enough to really get a good shelf.

The obvious variable here, as you acknowledged, is the significant difference in load and flexibility of the pvc pipe compared to a heavy barbell, so I wouldn’t advise the raised elbow position.

Alan Thrall made a good instructional squat video that should help answer your concerns: YouTube

Yea I've seen his new video (and just about every video and article on the low bar squat and grip). Doesn't really have any new information.
.
Thanks again guys. Gonna deload and try a few other things. Otherwise I might have to finally just change to high bar squats and stop trying to fit a square piece through a round hole.