Special considerations for spondylolisthesis / spondylolysis

[adauria]

Hi there, new to forum. I have searched the forum on this topic already, but still not sure about a few things. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

I'm a 42 yo, 5'5" 147lbs (down from 155 last month) man. I have lifted on and off over the years, mostly off the last few years. I've had mild to moderate lower back pain (primarily left side) for something like 25 years, but in the last 2-3 years it got a lot more severe and started shooting down my right leg to the point where walking and standing for anything more that just a few minutes were very difficult. I've seen different PTs over the years, as well as chiropractors and back specialists. I've had the shots, got tested for nerve blocks (not a good candidate), and have been told surgery was a good option for me. I'm trying to avoid that.

The purported cause of my pain is level 2 (pushing into 3) spondylolisthesis as well as spondylolysis. I also have RA, but am told by my rheumatologist that RA does not affect the spine and that my back issues are independent of my RA. My RA symptoms are well-controlled with medication, and it doesn't play a huge factor in training. As a side note, 25 years ago I had an arthroscopic knee surgery for osteochondritis dissecans. The knee is mostly OK most of the time, but gets a little achy here and there if I do an activity that involves a lot of running or lifting.

The last round of PT might have been helpful, as I am able to stand/walk for significantly longer than before. Then again, maybe it's just the fact that I've been going relatively easy and have avoided weights and most cardio. Currently I also practice Krav Maga 1-3x per week for about an hour. This generally involves some calisthenics, heavy bag work, a little running, some mock fighting and some actual sparring. I usually feel OK during the class (after a good warmup), but do occasionally feel some increased pain afterwards.

So, like I said, I read a bunch there, including Rip's article (Back Pain and Back Strength) and the recent Art of Manliness podcast where they talk about SS as a means of dealing with injuries and conditions like mine.

I have been starting to lift again for the first time in perhaps a couple of years. I have been careful by only doing exercises that aren't standing, specifically bench press, 1-arm bent over rows, dumbbell shoulder press (seated), and seated alternating curls. I've been moving toward higher weight, lower rep sets (currently my last set of each exercise is 4 reps with heavy weight). That said, I want to move more toward SS or at least something darn close to it.

I am going to read through the SS book ASAP (finishing up Bigger, Leaner, Stronger now, which seems like a modified flavor of SS at this point). In addition, I've watched (and will re-watch) Rip's videos for correct form. I have a local friend into SS who offered to help check my form as well.

So, finally, my questions:

- With my back condition, are there things I should specifically avoid or modify? Obviously, good form is really important. But any changes to the exercises or program? Are there major risks associated with this?
- Maybe this will be answered in the book, but does SS have exercises to develop upper back muscles, without which I would think imbalances with chest muscles can become a problem?
- I've seen some advice here that one shouldn't train on rest days. Would participation in Krav Maga training be proscribed by a SS program?
- How about those vanity muscles? I'm not too proud to admit that I like having a pumped up arm after a workout. Is there room for that in SS?

I could probably ask a bunch more, but I'll read the book before I ask any more stupid questions. Thanks in advance!

-Andrew

[Scaldrew]

- With my back condition, are there things I should specifically avoid or modify? Obviously, good form is really important. But any changes to the exercises or program? Are there major risks associated with this?

Cleans. Just don't. Not worth.

- Maybe this will be answered in the book, but does SS have exercises to develop upper back muscles, without which I would think imbalances with chest muscles can become a problem?

All of them.

- I've seen some advice here that one shouldn't train on rest days. Would participation in Krav Maga training be proscribed by a SS program?

Not from a Jedi.

- How about those vanity muscles? I'm not too proud to admit that I like having a pumped up arm after a workout. Is there room for that in SS?

Yes.

I could probably ask a bunch more, but I'll read the book before I ask any more stupid questions. Thanks in advance!

Yeah, no, don't.

[Will Morris]

"Dr. Morris, what do YOU do for biceps?" That is the most common question I hear by far. My answer is always, "Bench Press over 350#".

[Scaldrew]

"Dr. Morris, what do YOU do for biceps?" That is the most common question I hear by far. My answer is always, "Bench Press over 350#".

I mean, there IS room for it. Chins, pressing, benching, statically holding 500 pounds in the deadlift, maybe some mild curls. Aggressive ones will get you in trouble, though. Biceps'll get too big too fast and all the women will start to avoid you. My biceps aren't nearly as impressive, so me telling even weaker lifters to focus on benching and pressing just gets me dismissive snickers, as if I'm putting on an act when I tell them this.

It's funny, though, how it was high enough on the list of priorities to be included when the original impetus was to ask about training with either or both spondyls. I expected maybe a "should I avoid cleans and thus any other jumping or sprinting activities?", but instead we get "can I still do curls?". Not that I mind at all. Bless you, OP.

[Will Morris]

I mean, there IS room for it. Chins, pressing, benching, statically holding 500 pounds in the deadlift, maybe some mild curls. Aggressive ones will get you in trouble, though. Biceps'll get too big too fast and all the women will start to avoid you. My biceps aren't nearly as impressive, so me telling even weaker lifters to focus on benching and pressing just gets me dismissive snickers, as if I'm putting on an act when I tell them this.

It's funny, though, how it was high enough on the list of priorities to be included when the original impetus was to ask about training with either or both spondyls. I expected maybe a "should I avoid cleans and thus any other jumping or sprinting activities?", but instead we get "can I still do curls?". Not that I mind at all. Bless you, OP.

No doubt. I think most people seem to forget that building a solid foundation of strength will get you the aesthetic gains you want faster and more economically than training for those from the onset of training. I do really heavy hammer curls about 1-2 a month and I do really heavy weighted dips and LTE about the same frequency. There is certainly room for it, but it is a small place in the upstairs closet that you don't get into all that often.

[Scaldrew]

No doubt. I think most people seem to forget that building a solid foundation of strength will get you the aesthetic gains you want faster and more economically than training for those from the onset of training. I do really heavy hammer curls about 1-2 a month and I do really heavy weighted dips and LTE about the same frequency. There is certainly room for it, but it is a small place in the upstairs closet that you don't get into all that often.

I can't do dips cos they fuck up my shoulders like nothing else can. Shame, too, cos dips might help my bench and press progress some. I've always found the fascination with the biceps to be very strange. Is it that these people correlate strength/health/aesthetics with big arms or because linking arms with some women can lead to "such strong arms" compliments that's got them worried?

[adauria]

Thanks for the replies folks! So as I read, I'm OK for SS in general, just avoid the cleans.

The old lady likes big arms... what can I say. I'm vain (vane? vein?? English is strange). No plans to quit Krav Maga, even if it is a Sith art. I guess I'll see how it meshes with SS.

Finally got the ebook - plan to start reading once I finish one of my other books (very soon). I've also been going through the "barbell logic" podcast and find it's pretty solid stuff too. Looking forward to getting my form down and starting the LP.

Of course, some recent changes at my company means I'll be on the road a lot more often for a few months. I've been to enough hotel gyms to know that none of them have barbells or squat racks. I'll poke around this forum and see how my fellow road warriors keep barbell training when they're on the road. I'd guess it involves seeking out day passes and real gyms in the area.

-Andrew