Why Mark is wrong about squat Variations

[catkeson]

In Starting Strength, Mark goes into detail about how an individual's anatomy will dictate form on the deadlift. When back angle gets too flat due to an individual's anatomy, Mark says that Sumo deadlifts can be substituted for the traditional deadlift. However, for the squat, Mark barely talks about individual anatomy and says that the low bar squat is the only acceptable form for his program. He argues that the low bar squat is always superior to other variations due to increased posterior chain recruitment and the fact that you can perform the movement with more weight.

However, like the deadlift, the form of a squat is dictated by an individual's anatomy and variations can be used to control body position. It may blow your mind, but an individual with a larger femur to torso ratio might have the same body position on a high bar squat as an individual with a smaller ratio on the low bar. Would the long femur individual really benefit from moving the bar to a lower position, changing his perfectly fine body position to a Layne Norton style good morning squat? If that is the case, why don't we wrap our wrists and try to get the bar even lower on the back? Heck, you would get even more posterior chain recruitment and be able to push more weight. By the way Layne Norton's career has been riddled with low back injuries.

The truth is that bar position should not be the focus of a discussion on squats. BODY POSITION should be the focus. Just like the deadlift, back angle should be considered when choosing a squat variation. If an individual can achieve a superior body position in a high bar squat, he/she should be high bar squatting.

Superior body position: A position with optimal muscle recruitment, safety, and power for a particular lifter's goals. A bar too far in front of the body leads to possibly unsafe knee travel and quad dominance. A bar too far back on the body leads to to back angles that are too horizontal, reducing quad recruitment and requiring too much hip mobility to complete without lumbar flexion. Clearly there is an optimal position somewhere in the middle that IS NOT NECESSARILY the low bar position.

[Joe Jaloszynski]

Can a long femured lifter keep balances over midfoot?

[Joe Jaloszynski]

Let me add, can a long femured lifter stay balanced over midfoot with the bar in the low bar position?

[convergentsum]

Yes, but she may need a wider stance to achieve it.

[Nockian]

I don't think he ever says that you shouldn't do high bar squats, or even front squats.

I do have long legs to body, which means that if I take the hip drive cue too literally, then it pushes my back flat out of the hole. That probably won't happen to someone with a long body ratio. The answers is to find an alternative cue. In my case it was to understand hip drive as using legs/hips to get out of the hole, but to cue 'shoulder drahve' (registered trademark of Nockian inc.) to keep the back rigid.

There are a lot of things going on in the squat. It shouldn't be regarded as just a simple lever. If low bar isn't working (for any number of reasons), then go high bar. Simple as that. I happen to prefer low bar because it hurts my neck less and the bar lower seems to help stability more (lower CoG) ?

[Satch12879]

OP's posting history:

SS with herniated Disc

Herniated Disc Form Check

Squat Technique. Low-bar vs Front

Videos are not unavailable. Looks like a very young kid who had an injury, was not performing the movements correctly, invoked esoterica, found snowflakeism, and now believes he's made a breakthrough. Nothing new here.

[Shawnlock]

Let me add, can a long femured lifter stay balanced over midfoot with the bar in the low bar position?

Yes. Their knees will be more forward over the toes than one with a longer torso.

[Scaldrew]

Not to dogpile on the poor and unfortunate, but I feel like I've read this this post before. Probably why it's in repetitive enquiries. Sorry, inquiries.

OP, high bar squats don't use the post chain as much. So, no, even if the "angles are better for a specific athlete" in a different squat, that wouldn't be cause to change to a different squat since they wouldn't recruit the same amount of post chain muscle mass. The goal is to get stronger, not to perform. Do high bar on the platform if you really want to for dem angles, but you train the low bar squat because it's a training lift. Like the bench in an oly lifting context, it's a training lift that doesn't get a performance on the platform. You wouldn't say "yeh, just do incline/decline bench and never do flat; flat's bad for shoulders, I mean just look at Layne Norton or whoever". That's silly. And one thing people should always avoid being is silly.

Lemme reiterate the point real quick, G dawg, aight? Training is getting stronger, is prepping your body to make all sorts of neuromuscular connections later on, and to not die on performance day. So your low bar, your press, your bench, and your deadlift. That's the big 4. Yeah, cleans and chins and dips and maybe curls, whatever. Those all disappear once a trainee shows a lack of aptitude or interest or if the investment doesn't or will not show return. So big 4. But ah, you say, what about muh so and so sport? Well, that's called sports specific training; that's where you pitch balls or kick 'em or vault poles or whatever with the now prepped body that will adapt more efficiently and effectively and won't die on performance day. All of this just to repeat myself: no, never do high bar in training. Do high bar on performance day if you really have to (but you don't). Why? Because you will never be as trained as you can be if you do not do the low bar squat, and training is one side of the coin that is engaging in sports related activities. Don't mix and match because it will not work.

[catkeson]

@Satch12879 Well thanks for the ad hominem argument that completely dodges all of my questions. But if you really insist on attacking me rather than trying to refute my points, I will fill you in on how I am doing. I'm actually doing well. I'm doing the Texas method substituting low bar with high bar and have never been stronger. I have been completely pain free for almost a year now doing high bar squats. My one rep max is around 365 on the high bar, 435 on the dl, and 265 on the bench (6'2" 215lbs). Very happy with my progress. I have no lumbar flexion at the bottom of the movement and am very pleased with my form. If you are interested I can post a video.

@Scaldrew To play devils advocate, why don't you slide the bar another couple inches down your back? You will get even more posterior chain recruitment and be even stronger according to your logic. Is the low bar really ALWAYS superior to the high bar for all individuals? Do you not agree that some body positions are better than others in the squat and that different individuals may achieve the same body position in different squat variations due to different anatomy? I mean I am making very simple assumptions and very logical conclusions that you are not addressing.

Can someone please take a real stab at answering this question?

[Marenghi]

Jesus, those arguments dont make more sense when the 500th disciple blindly repeats them:
- High and low bar are not that much different to start with. Inform yourself about actual evidence, not theoretical mumbo-jumbo: High Bar and Low Bar Squatting 2.0 - Strengtheory

- Low bar gets a lil bit more hip extension and isometric low back; high bar a lil bit more quad ROM (and often extension).

- There is no exercise that "trains the most muscle mass over the greates ROM with the highest weight" because, as several here on the forum have already pointed out, thats a multi-goal optimization problem that doesnt have a single "best" solution (in this case a low bar squat). And we dont need one to start with: Because we have multiple exercises for overlapping movements and muscle groups in our training program. It depends on your goals, rest of your exercise choices and so on which combination is a good one.

So either low bar or high bar is fine, depending on the lifter, the rest of the exercises and goals (btw, I squat mostly low bar, if you wanted to take this personally).

The important thing is a good exercise selection AND THEN proper programming with progressive overload. SS does this excellently, as does any good training program. Lets stop inventing reasons for a highly specific design for merely brand preservation reasons. See also the current, in my opinion unnecessary, fork between SS and Barbell Medicine. ...That said, preservation of a homogenous, highly fixed content - even if doesnt have logical reasons - often is successful from a managerial point of view: The most dogmatic religions are the most successful ones - and Apple generates a lot of bucks, too.