Advice Requested for Re-starting Novice Progression

[Kevin Pavon]

Hi Rip. I am 5'10" 225 lbs., 30yo, muscular with decent amount of fat. I ran Starting Strength a year and a half ago and stalled at 335 Squat, 400 DL (double-overhand without straps), 275 BP, 185 PC, 170 press (all of these for sets across except DL). I tried Texas Method but went too heavy and stalled bad after a few weeks. Since then I have maintained my strength with various programs including 5/3/1, upper/lower splits, and trying to re-run Starting Strength, but I never passed those numbers. I saw the progress you had the 35 year-old ex-football player making on p.88 of PPST. I am using this progression, about to start week 7 with no issues. I am confident I can follow his numbers the whole way through, if not most of it, and am giving it my all. Warmups are exactly as described in BBT, with 5-10 min. on the elliptical first. Modifications I have made include a few reps of shrugs after the deadlifts, since when i ran it the first time my shrug strength was super weak compared to DL. Also I have no spotter, I have modified the bench press by starting at the bottom of the movement where I can stay tight. After I get in position under the bar it is around a half inch to an inch above my chest, and I do these the same as deadlifts with each rep starting from a dead stop. I love benching like this although it is harder. I eat a lot and try to get around 200 g/protein each day, taking protein shakes, creatine, and pre-workout drink. Any advice/constructive criticism? I really want to succeed in this and will do whatever it takes.

[BareSteel]

Hi Kevin,

Lots of information here. Were you looking specifically for programming advice? The model on p. 88 is a linear progression, so you can probably milk it for a little while until you stall again. Look to the intermediate chapter for ideas on what to do next. TM is the most aggressive of the intermediate models. As you experienced, loading (and nutrition) must be handled pretty deliberately or you enter the realm of over training. The Starr model is a pretty good choice for something a little more forgiving that follows some of the same general principles and still falls neatly into a 3-day/wk training template. Even if you wanted to run 5/3/1 again, which is popular but sometimes criticized for its lower squat frequency, I'm sure you could make it work. Lots of options here.

I'm having a hard time picturing how your bench is safer the way you described. You do them dead-stop style, which necessitates less weight on the bar - this part I understand. But it seems to me that there is still the possibility of fatigue getting the best of you and the bar pinning you to the bench. Please explain of I'm not picturing this correctly. Any chance you can get your hands on some stand alone spotter arms? That would mitigate the problem. At the very least, don't collar the bar, so you can slide the plates off in a worst case scenario. Hopefully it never gets to that point.

[Kevin Pavon]

I use steel sawhorses, rated for over 1500 lbs, and they hold the weight far enough above me so that I can get into position and get a good arch in my back, setting my self up nice and tight. When I am in position the bar is at a dead stop about a half inch to an inch above my chest. I have plenty of room to get under the bar and back out if I reach failure. The sawhorses will prevent anything from falling on me, just like a good squat rack. I have previously benched in the normal style without a spotter, at which point I simply remove the collars so I can tip the bar if things go wrong. I prefer the dead-bench style, although I could see myself stalling on bench quicker if they are more taxing. I may need to program these for one set of 5 like the deadlift but will cross that bridge when i get to it. I tend to have to use about 15 lbs less with this method than for my normal bench. Also, I intend to drop the shrugs the second I feel it eating into my recovery.

I did not realize Texas Method was a more aggressive intermediate method than others, so thanks for that. I will re-read the intermediate programming section to find a better programming style to transition to when my novice period wears off. I think I just started too heavy on TM and did not milk novice progression for all it was worth first.

Right now my focus is on dominating the Novice Progression, hit my old numbers and blow past them. Any advice/constructive criticism that pertains to that or the program mentioned on p. 88 of PPST is welcomed. Hopefully that dude is not a genetic freak, but simply worked his ass off. If so, I should be able to match his numbers.

[BareSteel]

Got it Kevin. I think the program nicely exemplifies how a lifter in your situation might transition from a standard novice progression to a more advanced novice template. Your job will be to determine when to make the small, but important, changes: when to microload the press and bench, when to rotate Chins in to the routine and decrease the deadlift frequency, etc. But as a model, I think it's the right thing to follow. If you reached those numbers linearly in the recent past, I don't see why you couldn't do it again with novice programming and adequate recovery.

Best,

[Travis Rask]

Fuckin-A man, I was typing a response and the forum logged me out and I lost it. Stand by, I'm going to re-write as this is a topic near and dear to me.

[Kevin Pavon]

Hey Travis, don't leave me hanging, now I want to know what you were going to say. And thanks for the input BareSteel. I have posted a training log which will hold me accountable for this in the Starting Strength Training Logs.

[Travis Rask]

Kevin,

I think you already know seeing the process of LP is completely up to you; you just need to commit mentally to the psychological savagery that occurs when the weights really start to get heavy and the stakes get higher.

I’m not much older than you, and at the same height and roughly the same weight when I finally completed LP to it’s fullest extent earlier this year. For brevity, I’ll just talk about squats, since they constitute the foundation of SS as well as the most arduous movement of late-stage LP (as well as the lift I'm undoubtedly most passionate about).

I did the program in early 2011, and made it to 315 work sets with no resets before taking a week off for a work-related vacation, which really meant a week of debauchery with a bunch of wild-ass firemen.

When I returned home, I was buried by 265 and thus started the process of rationalizing how I would un-fuck my situation, which ended up being an ill-fated journey through a variety of programs including GSLP, 531, and several rounds of smolov, all in the largely vain effort to return to 315 work sets, with some chronic injures to add insult to my ego and subtract weight from the bar. It haunted me.

In 2013 I attended the SSS, and after several years of training by myself (as well as some technical issues recognized by the SS staff) I decided some coaching was in order. I trained w/ Michael Street, who has been working with Rip for years, and is one of the most intelligent and technically savvy coaches I’ve ever encountered. To my chagrin, he believed I was still a novice and immediately launched me into the standard novice LP. I catapulted past my prior LP PRs, with an eventual goal of hitting work sets @ 405#. I quickly realized my biggest roadblock along the way was the 8” between my ears.

Over the course of many conversations, Street told me that over the years he had encountered very few people who had seen the LP process through to completion. Some suffered injuries and that haunted them into coming back and starting over. Most simply give up psychologically; they’re unable to deal with the sheer terror and stress of knowing once things get heavy, they really, really, really start to suck. When you’re hitting 385 for 3x5, knowing that in two days 390 is on tap, it becomes easy to rationalize an early exit and erect all sorts of excuses as to why you can’t make it in, or consciously (or subconsciously) execute a technical error that will result in a failed set.

I struggled with both, and over the course of six months hit a plateau of 385 before ultimately going into a holding pattern due to a chronic upper back injury, which produced violent spasms in my thoracic region and subsequently made squatting extremely painful; I still kept hammering at it before switching back to programming with Jordan and following an intermediate block periodization program in my home gym, while the injury still lingered.

Internally, I knew I still had some unfinished business in 3x5’s, and after the holidays I was blessed with a rare period of pain free squatting, and a retraining month w/ Jordan, which included a 3 week “mini-LP” to get me back in the swing of things.

I hit my goal over the course of the next month or so, and can attribute much of it to the lessons learned over the past few years, and the resolve to see things through. I also spent a good deal of time and money seeing quite a few chiropractors, physical therapists, and digging into several useful “mental game” literature that helped me shore up some of my sullied mental tenacity opportunities for improvement that were addressed by street and in my own reading.

More than anything, I decided I was tired of years of hand-wringing and had a calm, resolute, burning desire to see the process through to completion. Everything that I learned over the years culminated in viscerally challenging period of training that involved a lot of positive self talk and sangfroid execution between grueling sets/reps, and commitment to recovery and visualization and general resolve between sessions to finish what I started. I was willing to torture myself, cancel social engagements in favor of rest, even shit my pants mid-set (which I skirted with unflinchingly on several occasions).

Completing LP was one of the most challenging and heart-wrenching things I’ve ever done. It changed me for the better, and doubled my resolve to continuing training over the long term. There have been MANY times where I have considered abandoning barbell work in favor of something else, for fear of dealing with demons that weren’t easily dispelled. Today my commitment is greater than ever. I still have my roadblocks, which include a continuation of terrible upper back pain that still lingers. I don’t care. I know if I continue to persist things will eventually get better, and have compelling personal evidence to prove it. The process is more or less metaphorical to life. If someone wants something enough, they’ll find a way. If they don’t, they’ll find an excuse. One of the great historical aphorisms that rings true with many successful people, is that a person’s greatest success is one step beyond the point where they’re ready to quit. I wouldn’t say it is the greatest success I’ve ever had, but making that step was certainly a part of the foundation towards greater success down the road. If I walked away, I wouldn’t care to know what the unintended consequences would have been later. I work in a profession with intermittent and unpredictable incidents of extreme physical and psychological stress, which require me to be extremely physically and mentally hard. I have a lot of skin in the game beyond just the bar, this is just a very effective way to fortify myself for future challenges, and dispelling this demon could mean life or death for me (or a citizen, partner, etc.) down the road. Thankfully, I’ve relieved myself of fretting about it anymore.

See it through. You won’t regret it.

[Kevin Pavon]

Wow. Powerful stuff Travis, thanks for that. I have been there, and shied away from the weights or made excuses from pure fear of how heavy that bar would feel. So this message hits me deep. There are demons to struggle with here, but the rewards of victory make those demons seem small in comparison. I will keep my eyes on the prize and print this post out to hang in my garage gym, lest I forget the words of wisdom when things get tough.

Luckily I have no serious injuries to battle with. Much respect to you.

Can you remember the books for mental fortitude that you read, and provide a list?

[Travis Rask]

Ironmind by Randall K. Stroessen
With Winning in Mind by Lanny Bassham

Good luck man.

[BareSteel]

Travis, Respect man. Great post.