Overtraining and Unloading

[Jeffo]

Hi Mark,

Overtraining occurs when performance does not recover within one reduced-load training cycle.

p.41 Practical Programming


Chapter II is a great chapter. Thanks for writing it. I have a couple questions that pertain to the quotation above.

I understand that determining overtraining is level specific, but am unsure about the reduced load training cycle. For a novice, his unloading cycle is just the extra 48 hours of rest where he does nothing. For a more advanced trainee who needs perhaps 4 weeks of unloading, what will he do in that 4 weeks? In other words, how much of a reduction is necessary to recover and see gains?

I've just finished a rather aggressive 6 week cycle, and I saw a reduction of about 5-10% on my Bench Press in the last week, while my Squat didn't miss a beat.

Here was my basic 6 week loading cycle for the Bench and Squat: % (sets x reps)

Week 1
Day 1 70x(4x9)
Day 2 75x(5x7)

Week 2
Day 1 80x(7x5)
Day 2 85x(10x3)

Week 3+4
as above + 10KG on Squat and 5KG on Bench

Week 5+6
as above + 5 more KG on Squat and 2.5 more KG on Bench


It was a lot of work. I made it through the Squats but had to reduce the weight on the Bench in week 6 by 5-10%. Any ideas how I would reduce the training load to bring out gains in about 4 weeks time?

I can imagine this is too complicated and/or annoying to talk about on line. If that's the case, thanks anyways. I do have one more question:

I've always thought of overtraining as something that results from accumulated systemic fatigue, but in my case I was able to make it thorugh the Squats while I got hammerd by the Bench Press. Is is possible to overtrain one movement pattern even though you're not suffering from accumulated fatigue? In other words, overtrain the Bench but be fine on the Squat? I wasn't suffering from unusual soreness in my benching muscles.

Thanks for reading my novel,
Jeff

[Mark Rippetoe]

How much do you weight, Jeff?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I know mark hasn't answered the question yet so feel free to delay/delete my post if you want to but speaking from my own experience as an "advanced" lifter and training with other advanced lifters, unloading and peaking varies quite a bit between individuals at a certain stage.

In my own training, when I unload from a hard training cycle, I generally hit my peak about 14-21 days out from my last hard high volume workout. This trend is substantiated by alot of the available literature on the subject. How you reach that peak during that unloading block I think is what varies.

Some people respond well to drastic reductions in volume with intensity kept high and frequency about the same. My best gains have come from drastic reductions in frequency, and slight reductions in volume and slight reductions in intensity.

So say I have been squatting 3x's per week for 4-6 weeks hard and heavy during a loading block. When I deload, reducing that frequency to twice per week is not enough of a deload for me. I do better when I reduce my squatting frequency to every 4 or 5 days. This may have to do with how aggressive your loading block was. Maybe Mark can give a better explanation than that.

This is just my own experience and Tudor Bompa I am not. It does illustrate however, the value of keeping good training logs and sticking with a plan long enough to see how it effects you and how you might adjust it in the future.

[Jeffo]

I weigh about 95KG right now. I'm a little heavy for my liking and I normally keep my weight just under 90KG, so I'm trying to lose a bit of weight at the moment.

Jeff

[Jeffo]

Thanks a lot for the reply KSC. I'm sure this stuff varies considerably from person to person.

I've done this once before after a 4 week loading block. On that occasion I kept frequency and intensity the same, but drastically reduced volume. I was able to see good improvements 3 weeks later.

This time, since I hit a wall with the Bench Press, I've decided to keep frequency the same, drop intensity slightly, and drastically reduce volume again. I'm hoping to see improvements in 4 weeks as opposed to 3. I don't know if this is a good strategy and/or if it's a reasonable time frame. I'm also curious if the SQ, DL and BP will all peak at different times. I did a 90%+ day last week and the SQ and DL felt good. I went to 97% on the SQ without any difficulties and even did 100% on the DL without blinking an eye, but a single at 90% on the BP felt like a real max effort. At the moment I don't feel fatigued at all. I'm actually itching to start another cycle soon.

I'm planning another 90%+ day tomorrow, so we'll see how heavy the weights feel then. I'd like to max next Saturday the 21st, if that's reasonable.

Anyways, thanks again for the input bro.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Hard to say what it is that is keeping your bench press from progressing past a certain point while the squats and deads keep rollin on. It could be a number of things, or even a combination of them, five things that I can think of:

1) It's possible that if you were using a program based on percentages that maybe you miscalculated your 1RM numbers a bit and based them off of an irrelevant max? I only say this because I have made this mistake before.

2) Either that or you are making jumps on the bench that are just too big.

3) You may have a technical flaw that is not allowing progress past a certain point. I've seen this with lifters who can't properly maintain an arch and retracted shoulder blades. They wind up lifting "flat backed" as I call it and they wind up hitting a wall until they correct their problem. Maybe you can post a video that Mark could critique

4) You have a weakness somewhere that needs to be brought up to speed? Might do you some good to include some assistance exercisesor maybe even some speed sets on your next cycle if you suspect this is a problem, just don't get crazy with them.

5) You are starting your weights too heavy at the beginning of your loading block. Lets say you have a five week loading block for the bench and your target weight at the end of the loading block is 5x5 for 300 lbs, and you had previously been able to hit 5x5x290-295, so lets say you do the following:

Week 1 - 5x5x280 lbs
Week 2 - 5x5x285 lbs
Week 3 - 5x5x290 lbs
Week 4 - 5x5x295 lbs
Week 5 - 5x5x300 lbs

What generally happens on something like this is that you will burn out too quickly because your loads were just too aggressive to maintain over a five week period. Might be smarter to try something like this

Week 1 - 5x5x240
Week 2 - 5x5x255
Week 3 - 5x5x270
Week 4 - 5x5x285
Week 5 - 5x5x300

Hope this helps a little.

[Jeffo]

Hi Mark,

Just wondering if you had anything to say about my situation, or dealing with overtraining and peaking in general, or has KSC pretty much covered all there is to say. I can imagine this is more an "art" than a "science."

Cheers,
Jeff

EDIT: Thanks a lot for the info KSC. Honestly, I just followed the Smolov JR. loading patter as it was written. I did include some presses and some tricep work twice a week, so maybe that was just too much for the pressing muscles. Would also explain why the SQ and DL weren't a problem. Of the things you mentioned, form is the only thing that might be an issue. I think I'm staying arched, pinched and tucked pretty well, and I use some leg drive, but one can never be sure without a trained eye watching.

Thanks for taking the time to write that out. Will be useful for future cycles.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Andy handles all these complicated programming questions for me, since I have 25 other posts to get to. Andy just got promoted.

[Jeffo]

Andy handles all these complicated programming questions for me, since I have 25 other posts to get to. Andy just got promoted.

Cool. A worthy candiate.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Okay then. I was unaware of my role and my promotion. I'll try and help where I can.