Another squat video. I don't know how much longer my knees have

[Misery]

So Rip, I've posted before and left you some videos, claiming that I have some noticeable knee pain after squatting, but you told me that the relatively recently adjusted form shown in the video didn't have any major flaws.

Well about a month later, I definitely STILL have some knee pain. Nothing debilitating, but it's there. Not to mention my knees are just very unstable.

To describe it accurately, my left knee is the one I feel slight pain in every now and then, while my right knee tends to...pop infrequently. And when I squat down (bodyweight) and start to come back up, my knees make far more noise than I'd like.

I really don't know what else to do for my form. I keep my chest upright. I push from my heels. I push my knees outwards. I make sure my knees track over my toes. I don't let me knees buckle inward and I don't let them slide forward...and yet my knees are a wreck.

If it helps at all, I notice that my knees seem to always want to buckle inward when I squat down; I just keep them out, but it's..not as smooth as I'd like. And I still feel like I don't get enough of an explosion out of the bottom of my squat. I can only suspect I'm not using my hamstrings enough or sitting back enough, but I'm sure you would've mentioned that if that were the case.

Needless to say, I don't know what the hell to do anymore other than throwing in the towel and resorting to box squats, but here are my most recently recorded videos. I'll try to put more up by Monday, as I think my form is tighter than what's shown here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5jTOYViFgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HA1BevCx8g (this one is a little older, but it got the most traffic and I think it's what you commented on before)

I'll work on getting more current, competent videos. I'm trying to find out where I go wrong, and why I can't squat like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrKMZv2I-go

[Mark Rippetoe]

There is nothing wrong with these squats. Have you tried wrapping your knees as Gary Gibson suggests in his article?

[Misery]

I'm currently using knee sleeves to keep my knees warm, but I really haven't noticed much of a difference. I'm at a weird place right now.

One of the tests I do to measure my knee pain and whether things have gotten worse or remain at status quo is I enter the dip position and put pressure on my knee for a few seconds. That used to hurt quite a bit for both knees. Now it's practically nothing in my right and only a dull pain in my left...but my real problem is the instability of my knee.

When I read through a recently posted message of a guy saying squats have made his knees stronger than ever, that's the point I want to get to.

Going back to the video, I think I've done...a really poor job of maintaining hamstring tightness throughout the lift. I'm not sure this type of thing is visible from the videos I posted, but I have made changes to my form since then, and will post a video of them soon.

Could this lack of hamstring tightness be the cause of my knee problems? I mean, I don't feel like I get any explosion out of the bottom of the squat, and it's odd, because I'm not even winded after the set is done and the weight (250 at the most thus far) doesn't even seem all that heavy...I just can't get a decent drive.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I think that if your hamstrings were loose at the bottom of the squat, your knees would be sliding forward, and they're not. Try some actual wraps.

[Robert Callahan]

maybe time to buy some real squat shoes?

[homerj742]

Have you considered getting a sports massage done or something? I noticed my knee pain was always a result of IT band tightness, or my quads being all knotted up. So it was never really my knee that was the problem. Just a thought, and hoping it's something as simple as that.

[Leeuwer]

Hey Misery,

I have been troubled by knee pain ever since a tram accident 5 years ago and the following stubborn training persistence.

The form Mark has laid out in his book is the one that has been responsible for me finally being able to squat on a regular basis, instead of two weeks on and three weeks off from the extreme pain.

I sit back just a bit further than is recommended in the book.
Mark recommends leading with the hips, but I jut them just a bit further to the back at the beginning of the lift. This puts a tad more tension on the hamstrings and allows me to keep almost all pressure off my knees.

In this video you can see what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY81l4Vc0Q0

This really did it for me. Just a small cue. See if it helps.

[Misery]

Real squatting shoes? Is there something wrong with low cut chuck taylors that have often been recommended for squats?

And I may be beatind a dead horse here, but the reason I keep mentioning my hamstrings is this: I've been on SS for about ten months now, and muscle soreness has been a thing of the past for about eight of them. After tweaking my form last Friday, my hamstrings were sore like the first day I'd ever done squats.

When I think of all the things I could be doing wrong to lead to unstable knees and slight knee pain, this is the only thing I cane come up with, because I've been through everything trying to fix it (except knee wraps, but I'll see if this helps)

I've gotten myself flexible enough to nearly hit a sidesplit, thinking the problem was my hip flexors. I've done tons and tons of foam work to roll out my IT band, thinking maybe it was the attachments around the knee that were giving me issues. I've done all sorts of knee strengthening exercises, and I'm currently doing TKEs whenever I get the chance. And I even took off two weeks from squatting to hit GHRs hard, suspecting my hamstrings may just have been lacking.

I guess the real test is tomorrow, even though I've chosen to make this my deload week. Leeuwer, I'll try to keep your tips in mind and apply them tomorrow.

[elVarouza]

I can't tell from your videos if this is happening to you, but I'll occasionally get knee pain when I squat if one of my toes is pointed out slightly more than the other. It's very subtle to the the point where I can't tell from looking down at my shoes, but video taping myself from the front has shown it.