LBBS Oly. Lifting Carryover

[saqadri9c]

Called up a renowned Oly. lifting gym in the Los Angeles area because I am both looking for a new gym in the area with quality equipment (any recs much appreciated!) and to start practicing Oly. lifting technique (both snatch and C&J). They are very expensive to use and I'm still making progress on my novice LP so am a little hesitant on joining with my student budget. I explained my training goals/program to the rep.: told them I'm on Starting Strength and he stated that while he respects you as a person and thinks the program you've outlined is great for building strength, there's not as much carryover from the Low-Bar style squat advocated by SS into the Olympic lifts/OH squats and that they would always recommend the high-bar squat for this reason. They claim that they've had several SS trainees come in and have trouble getting the Snatch and C&J down because of the ingrained low-bar motor pattern. I know you advocate Low-bar for building base strength in Olympic trainees, and the front squat to better apply this strength/assistance exercise for the Olympic lifts. In your experience has there been any appreciable increase in learning curve to being able to OH Squat/Snatch/Squat clean from a trainee using primarily Low bar vs. High bar squat? The rep. that I spoke to also said that the gym advocates a much lower initial hip height(ie hips down by ankles) for pulls than what is called for by SS, like what Salimi does here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml5D...M&noredirect=1

I've read the analysis in the book and taken the seminar and certainly can't argue with the moment arm minimization/lat-humerus angle force diagram reasoning for putting the feet/hips where they should be, but is that low hip height pull promoted by Olympic coaches simply out of historical inertia?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I explained my training goals/program to the rep.: told them I'm on Starting Strength and he stated that while he respects you as a person and thinks the program you've outlined is great for building strength, there's not as much carryover from the Low-Bar style squat advocated by SS into the Olympic lifts/OH squats and that they would always recommend the high-bar squat for this reason.

The only carryover is strength. This, of course, is apparently meaningless.

They claim that they've had several SS trainees come in and have trouble getting the Snatch and C&J down because of the ingrained low-bar motor pattern.

This is especially true if they don't know how to coach the movements anyway.

I know you advocate Low-bar for building base strength in Olympic trainees, and the front squat to better apply this strength/assistance exercise for the Olympic lifts. In your experience has there been any appreciable increase in learning curve to being able to OH Squat/Snatch/Squat clean from a trainee using primarily Low bar vs. High bar squat?

The people I deal with are apparently better athletes that these guys are used to working with, because we just don't have a problem with teaching the squat snatch to a lifter who has been low-bar squatting. Perhaps it is related to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSxxajrTO5w Watch at :21-:23.

The rep. that I spoke to also said that the gym advocates a much lower initial hip height(ie hips down by ankles) for pulls than what is called for by SS, like what Salimi does here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml5D...M&noredirect=1

I've read the analysis in the book and taken the seminar and certainly can't argue with the moment arm minimization/lat-humerus angle force diagram reasoning for putting the feet/hips where they should be, but is that low hip height pull promoted by Olympic coaches simply out of historical inertia?

No, it's a lack of awareness that there are other methods than the one currently in fashion in the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZFms0ruG5E

But really -- and I respect these people personally, you must understand -- in the absence of competent coaching, you'll just have to use them. Do what they tell you to do.

[saqadri9c]

Perhaps it is related to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSxxajrTO5w Watch at :21-:23.

Yes, I remember this video being thoroughly dissected frame by frame at the seminar during the deadlift discussion when we were talking about maintaining vertical bar path for pulls. Looking at that specific time, its clear that Dolega brings his knees back and shifts his back angle just a smidge horizontally after the rack so he can utilize hip drive to accelerate the weight up. I'm guessing he's probably using low-bar as his primary squat exercise.

No, it's a lack of awareness that there are other methods than the one currently in fashion in the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZFms0ruG5E

I had assumed that low hips were a European import, but it appears I am quite mistaken.

Sarcasm aside, you probably shouldn't respect these people, given that a month ago this gym held a "technique" meet for young kids and teens, in which weight lifted was not judged, but simply how strict their technique was. Unfortunately, I don't know of many decent options here in LA for good Oly. coaching and/or serviceable equipment. This gym holds "open" hours now to allow anyone willing to pay 99/mo. to come in b/w 9 PM-midnight to get their workout in, which is still somewhat tempting given that I bent the bar at the school gym squatting only 365.

[Robert Santana]

The people I deal with are apparently better athletes that these guys are used to working with, because we just don't have a problem with teaching the squat snatch to a lifter who has been low-bar squatting. Perhaps it is related to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSxxajrTO5w Watch at :21-:23.

Like you said in Monrovia.....he is one bad motherfucker for catching that

[Mark Rippetoe]

Looking at that specific time, its clear that Dolega brings his knees back and shifts his back angle just a smidge horizontally after the rack so he can utilize hip drive to accelerate the weight up. I'm guessing he's probably using low-bar as his primary squat exercise.

I doubt that very much. He is merely using the hip motion that the low-bar position is specifically designed to train.

I had assumed that low hips were a European import, but it appears I am quite mistaken.

The Poles use it almost exclusively as their pull start position. When a snatch is heavy, everybody gets out of the bottom with their hips.

Sarcasm aside, you probably shouldn't respect these people, given that a month ago this gym held a "technique" meet for young kids and teens, in which weight lifted was not judged, but simply how strict their technique was. Unfortunately, I don't know of many decent options here in LA for good Oly. coaching and/or serviceable equipment. This gym holds "open" hours now to allow anyone willing to pay 99/mo. to come in b/w 9 PM-midnight to get their workout in, which is still somewhat tempting given that I bent the bar at the school gym squatting only 365.

If technique is all that American Olympic weightlifting is concerned with, it makes perfect sense to judge the meet this way. They cannot win international meets by this criterion, but that is apparently not the objective anyway.

[Beau Bryant]

Funny this thread comes up today. I just started working the Olympic lifts with a girl who came to us less than a year ago for CrossFit. As is usually the case after a few months she fell in love with lifting and trained for about 6 months for a PL meet. 3 weeks ago she went 9 for 9 with a 235 pound squat and 265 deadlift. She is over 40 and weight in well under 148. Here is a video of her 3rd attempt squat. Low bar of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q34ij...e_gdata_player

Here is a video today, three weeks later of the end of her first real snatch session.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=borpo...e_gdata_player

I don't usually respond to this stuff but these statements people make are just not true in my experience. Maybe my experience is different from everyone else.

[deeprooted]

The rep. that I spoke to also said that the gym advocates a much lower initial hip height(ie hips down by ankles) for pulls than what is called for by SS, like what Salimi does here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml5D...M&noredirect=1

I've read the analysis in the book and taken the seminar and certainly can't argue with the moment arm minimization/lat-humerus angle force diagram reasoning for putting the feet/hips where they should be, but is that low hip height pull promoted by Olympic coaches simply out of historical inertia?

I think it was said this technique is used in order to be able to get the upper back into greater extension at the beginning of the lift which is supposedly beneficial for receiving of the bar. Obviously the deadlift part of the lift will be less efficient which they probably explain as being of little importance because it's not a maximum deadlift attempt anyway.

[tnumrych]

The Poles use it almost exclusively as their pull start position. When a snatch is heavy, everybody gets out of the bottom with their hips.

I'm not sure if it's exclusively, Dołęga (Marcin) and Kołecki do, but, the other Dołęga brother (Robert) and Adrian Zieliński don't from what I've seen.
http://youtu.be/emX3-0NmtTQ

[Robert Santana]

This gym holds "open" hours now to allow anyone willing to pay 99/mo. to come in b/w 9 PM-midnight to get their workout in, which is still somewhat tempting given that I bent the bar at the school gym squatting only 365.

There is another gym in downtown El Segundo that charges much less and is 24 hours with keycard access. It appears to be north of the one you are referring to. It's small but they pretty much have everything except platforms and 45 lb bumpers (they have 10,15,25, and 35). Its worth the extra trip and you can DTP there without equipment being the limiting factor.

[Tom DiStasio]

I hang out with a lot of olympic lifting coaches and we get into the argument of the LBBS quite often. For some reason they all feel as though the LBBS throws off squatting mechanics and leads the lifter to be forward in their pull (I'm still unsure why this would be a product of any form of squatting...) When the simple question of "why?" is thrown at them, all they ever have to offer is the fact that its all about the central nervous system. Unfortunately, when you prod any further it usually just leads to them brushing off the low bar as stupid and they refuse to listen to sound logic criticizing high bar back squat and promoting LBBS. The interesting part of all of this is the fact that these "high level coaches" have not, and will never take the time to even try low bar back squat. They just say its a waste of time and continue to have our US lifters consider a 250kg squat as strong lift.

My lifters low bar squat and have no problem with their clean recovery or their pull. I don't think I've ever had a problem of low bar mechanics carrying over to the clean recovery with any of my lifters. If it ever happens, I would be shocked.