Can you explain the science behind kinetic linking in martial arts?

[abduality]

Hi Rip -

I've been wondering what the physiological mechanism is behind this video of Chu Shong Tin transmitting force through a group of people?

I'm guessing something along the lines of Newton's cradle? The more the people resist his push (by flexing their muscles), the more of a rigid body they become and so the push from Chu Shong Tin travels without much dissipation?

I'm thinking a similar mechanism is at play with Press 2.0, no?

Thanks!

[Mark Rippetoe]

I have no idea, although willing participation may play a prominent role. There doesn't seem to be a lot of disagreement among the guys in the row.

[tertius]

I have no idea, although willing participation may play a prominent role. There doesn't seem to be a lot of disagreement among the guys in the row.

Willing participation is definitely a significant factor.

It's actually not that difficult to knock someone off balance when they are pushing into you, if you have developed the kinesthetic sense to feel their balance well.
And it's often much easier when people are making themselves somewhat rigid. But, generally note the way he works a twist into the first guy around 1:40, that he doesn't really allow them to get firmly settled, and that none of them appear to be able to ground themselves for shit, or to be very strong.

This would work rather less well with a line of SSCs.

[OCG]

There isn't a physical mechanism here. It's all mental. I'm sure Hurling will be happy to shed more light upon the matter.

[Aryah]

If only Chinese martial arts could have put its money where its mouth was in the original UFC, but as we know, it was destroyed and that ship has since sailed. Unfortunately like many cult-like institutions, the leaders refuse to put themselves under scrutiny. They'd rather rake in the money from their minions using parlor tricks like chi sao.

[AndrewLewis]

Consider the following:

In order to transmit force, what must be true of the constituent parts? They must be rigid to some extent.

If they relaxed their arms, the force wouldn't transmit. If they pushed back with equal force, they wouldn't move. This is the basis of statics.


The only reason stuff like this happens is because, as Rip said, they are willingly participating.
You see this shit everywhere on youtube.

Weird No Touch Aikido With Sensei Watanabe, Is It Real!? - YouTube

Are they magic? No, they just have these idiots that have basically hypnotized themselves into letting it happen.

[Steve Hill]

And, as such, the OP used the wrong "P-word" in asking his question.

He meant to use one starting with "psy-"

[Mark E. Hurling]

There's nearly always an element of autosuggestion in such demonstrations unless the crash dummies involved aren't cued in to what the demonstrator is going to do to them. I've been the subject (crash dummy) for both types and when I don't know what is going to be done to me, the technique demonstrated has still worked nearly every single time. But it works even better when the demonstrator cues me with "OK now, I'm going to knock Hurling silly with this." Not that they usually have far to go with the silly part. So there's that.

Also what tertius said. He's got more direct training than I've had in Chinese MA. I have practiced Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean arts. The only exposure I've had to a Chinese art is through the Kempo that got incorporated into the Mushin Ryu I practice these days. So I'm doing a little guessing and interpretation from what that art teaches us.

First off, while Chu is no strapping physical specimen, neither are the crash dummies he's using. The biggest thing I noticed was their foot placement. For the most part their feet are either on parallel tracks (not quite in a horse stance) with each other and the toes flared slightly outward. This stance is very susceptible to displacement and loss of balance from front to back, which is exactly how the crash dummies were arrayed. So, like dominoes, when one guy gets moved back, so do the others. As has already been observed by others, the stiffer the resistance the more the "shock wave" (albeit it a slow rolling wave) gets transmitted from front to back. If the crash dummies had gotten into a back stance (where the back foot is set perpendicular to the front foot) those guys wouldn't have moved much, if at all. On the last 3-4 man chain demo, the last guy did that, but by then the force multiplier of the 3 guys in front of him moving back sent him back anyway. In one of the demos, a couple of the guys had one foot slightly advanced in front of the other. This is more stable, but their knees weren't bent much if at all to brace for impact, and their feet were still both oriented front to back. So, still very susceptible to Chu's shove backward. Like wise with their arms. In the first chain demo, the guys had their arms slightly flexed. Not much, but a little. As the demos proceeded, they started locking out their elbows which only made it worse for them.

Watching Chu himself move was the direct opposite of the crash dummies. His transmission of power started from his feet, which he had positioned in close to a back stance. His knees were more bent and as he surged forward they extended, transmitting his bodyweight into the crash dummies. His use of his hands and arms bears some scrutiny as well. He doesn't appear to bench press his arms to lockout. He surges through his base (feet and legs) and tilts his torso forward. All the time keeping both humeri in contact with his torso and slightly extending his forearms. This better transmits his bodily backup mass with a minimum potential loss of power through disadvantageous leverages. Which he would have had if he had simply walked up to the first guy and shoved those old, thin arms straight at him.

Those are the main elements.

[nykid]

I have done martial arts (Japanese karate, mostly) from a young age and have seen some crazy stuff. For example, small guys who don't barbell squat shattering huge blocks of ice with their bare hands or feet. So my bias is to think there's more going on here than just the "willing participant" factor.

(Is the rock a willing participant here: Kaicho's break - 2010 Sakura Matsuri, Brooklyn Botanical Gardens - YouTube )

[novicejay]

Hi Rip -

I've been wondering what the physiological mechanism is behind this video of Chu Shong Tin transmitting force through a group of people?

I'm guessing something along the lines of Newton's cradle? The more the people resist his push (by flexing their muscles), the more of a rigid body they become and so the push from Chu Shong Tin travels without much dissipation?

I'm thinking a similar mechanism is at play with Press 2.0, no?

Thanks!

This is baloney.

Much like weightlifting the martial arts is filled with these charlatans.

Like this guy: Phony Karate Master - No Touch KO Debunked - YouTube