Muscle Protein Synthesis question(s)

[downunder4]

Hi Jordan,
I apologise in advance if these are dumb questions, but I have been curious about them for a while!
These questions relate to protein synthesis and recovery.

From The Pendulum of Specificity Part III: Hypertrophy
“If we put values on these “MPS time frames” with full knowledge that they are highly variable by individual and training status/experience, a novice typically has a 48hr window where MPS gets elevated and then comes back to baseline. An advanced lifter might see this same cycle of MPS rates in 16-24hrs (or less). Moreover, MPS levels tend to be limited in magnitude with any overload event significant enough to be an overload event, i.e. it’s hard enough, challenging enough, and/or cumulatively (with preceding workouts) fatiguing enough to drive a MPS response”.

What would happen if the trainee (intermediate) trained again before the MPS triggered from a previous workout returned to baseline level – would they interfere with MPS and not the get the full adaptation/growth benefit?

If the answer to the above is yes, it would interfere, what if the trainee was doing a split program and training on consecutive days but training completely different movements, say squats on one day and bench the next. Would this interfere with optimum MPS?

Finally, if this split program was done over a 5 day period, say Mon, Tues, Thus, Fri – then how would the cumulative stress affect MPS given that the full MPS cycle was never completed before the next workout?

I know the general idea is to “generate as much MPS as we can and do it as often as possible” but I am not clear if this means trigger MPS or a full MPS cycle.

Many thanks

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

What would happen if the trainee (intermediate) trained again before the MPS triggered from a previous workout returned to baseline level – would they interfere with MPS and not the get the full adaptation/growth benefit?

No. Most of the training done after the novice phase is done at various points of the ebb and flow of MPS post workout. Training "too soon" is not really a problem. Training "too much" or "too little" for a specific person's physiology and goals are.

[Dkrad1935]

Jordan - I haven't read this article mentioned but read another article where you discuss that leucine is perhaps a trigger for the body to begin MPS. I think you mentioned that you need around 4 grams for that trigger to work.

1. Does MPS only begin if the body is repairing trauma induced from training? In other words, if I had the requisite amount of leucine, but had not worked out in past week, would the body still kick off MPS?

2. My protein goals should then be based around getting that requisit leucine as many times as possible 3 hours apart during the day? So more smaller meals with 40ish grams of quality protein are better than fewer large meals in that I could potentially kick off twice as many bouts of MPS in a given cycle?

3. I think from a little web searching that I need close to 7 grams of chicken breast for example to get the requisite leucine. Is that right? The lower that threshold the easier it is to be compliant.

4. If MPS begins anytime the nutrients signal it, what happens when there is no training related repair? Is there just tissue turnover? Or maintenance or something along those lines?

5. And lastly. Could I do an experiment where I lift, then hook up to an iv that sedated me and feeds me until it is time for my next workout? I'm sort of joking but the question is really about if you could eat over a 24 hour period and get your rest would you recover quicker?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

1. Does MPS only begin if the body is repairing trauma induced from training? In other words, if I had the requisite amount of leucine, but had not worked out in past week, would the body still kick off MPS?

Yes it absolutely would. Training/mechanical stress tends to increase the sensitivity of the person to leucine's effect, however.

2. My protein goals should then be based around getting that requisit leucine as many times as possible 3 hours apart during the day? So more smaller meals with 40ish grams of quality protein are better than fewer large meals in that I could potentially kick off twice as many bouts of MPS in a given cycle?

Define "better"? In general you're right about getting doses of leucine periodically to generate MPS as often as possible, however.

3. I think from a little web searching that I need close to 7 grams of chicken breast for example to get the requisite leucine. Is that right? The lower that threshold the easier it is to be compliant.

There's about 2.5g of leucine in 5oz of chicken. 7oz would more than cover you.

4. If MPS begins anytime the nutrients signal it, what happens when there is no training related repair? Is there just tissue turnover? Or maintenance or something along those lines?

Tissue remodeling, turnover, repair,etc. regardless of "stress" and some potential growth if there's some "overload event".

5. And lastly. Could I do an experiment where I lift, then hook up to an iv that sedated me and feeds me until it is time for my next workout? I'm sort of joking but the question is really about if you could eat over a 24 hour period and get your rest would you recover quicker?

No, continuous feeding is worse from an MPS standpoint than bolused feeding. We're actually gearing up for some clinical research on ICU patients proving this very subject.

[Dkrad1935]

But what if it isn't continuous but rather at the prescribed intervals. What I meant by continuous is that I could extra feeding cycles in during sleep. Assuming the nutrients could be delivered via iv without interrupting the sleep cycle. Cause if that worked, I'd start a resort where people would check in for 3-4 weeks of exercise and induced recovery comas

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I don't think generating an extra 2 MPS cycles amidst an already solid nutritional plan is going to do much good, unfortunately- b/c I wanna go to your resort!

[downunder4]

Thanks for answering my OP.

A bit of thinking out loud with some questions thrown in.
Lets assume that I have a sound nutritional plan and am triggering MPS every 3-5 hours through the ingestion of enough leucine, either from a protein source or by leucine supplementation.
If I don’t train, then MPS still triggers but goes to repair, remodelling, turnover but not to growth of muscle due to the adaptation of stress. So MPS is still vital to maintain healthy muscle and other tissue, one might say to your metabolic processes which contribute to the healthy functioning of your body. Is this correct?

If I do train, say every 48 hours, or using a split routine every 24 hours, then I am tapping into this ebb and flow of MPS but I am also now using MPS to grow muscle as a result of overload events.
Given that you can’t train “too soon” but you can train “too much” then is this why one needs to be careful with volume and why more frequent, shorter and higher intensity workouts could be more beneficial for intermediate trainers? (Assuming that they are nutritionally sound). That is, they are maximising the ebb and flow of MPS cycles without overloading the balance between stress and repair.

I am guessing that MPS occurs at a systemic level to some degree; that is the whole body is benefitting from MPS at any given point in time. However, say I do a squat session, which will stress my entire body but particularly my lower body, does MPS occur to a greater degree in my lower body (to repair and grow the stressed muscle groups)?

If so, is this why a split program alternating lower body and upper body (squat, press, dead lift, bench for example) works to allow more frequent training without overloading the whole system?

And finally, dead lifts work “the whole body” more than the other lifts, therefore to repair, recover, adapt and grow from a set of heavy dead lifts requires more from the MPS cycle. Is this why the volume of dead lifts needs to be reduced relative to the other lifts and why they should be programmed at the end of a split program (the last day of the split program)?

Thanks again, apologies for the wall of text!

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

A bit of thinking out loud with some questions thrown in.
Lets assume that I have a sound nutritional plan and am triggering MPS every 3-5 hours through the ingestion of enough leucine, either from a protein source or by leucine supplementation.
If I don’t train, then MPS still triggers but goes to repair, remodelling, turnover but not to growth of muscle due to the adaptation of stress. So MPS is still vital to maintain healthy muscle and other tissue, one might say to your metabolic processes which contribute to the healthy functioning of your body. Is this correct?

Yes, protein turnover still happens everyday. Also, if you trained any time in the past 48hrs, you'll be growing new muscle tissue in addition to repairing previous tissue.

Given that you can’t train “too soon” but you can train “too much” then is this why one needs to be careful with volume and why more frequent, shorter and higher intensity workouts could be more beneficial for intermediate trainers? (Assuming that they are nutritionally sound). That is, they are maximising the ebb and flow of MPS cycles without overloading the balance between stress and repair.

No, not really. "too much training" that doesn't get you hurt or de-motivate you is kind of a bogus concept outside of optimizing the rate of supracompensation. Training "too much", causes lots of fatigue- such that recovery from said fatigue takes longer than a lesser amount. For a typical intermediate, there is a threshold of fatigue that must be accumulated to drive adaptation. Any excess fatigue is just giving a bigger dose to get the same response you otherwise would with a smaller dose. Subsequent doses will then need to be bigger in the future.

I am guessing that MPS occurs at a systemic level to some degree; that is the whole body is benefitting from MPS at any given point in time. However, say I do a squat session, which will stress my entire body but particularly my lower body, does MPS occur to a greater degree in my lower body (to repair and grow the stressed muscle groups)?

Yes, because there are more local fatigue products/myokines/cytokines, and increased protein sensitivity there too.

If so, is this why a split program alternating lower body and upper body (squat, press, dead lift, bench for example) works to allow more frequent training without overloading the whole system?

Is what why? A split program usually decreases frequency but increases total volume relative to previous levels of training, which may be right or wrong depending on context.

And finally, dead lifts work “the whole body” more than the other lifts, therefore to repair, recover, adapt and grow from a set of heavy dead lifts requires more from the MPS cycle. Is this why the volume of dead lifts needs to be reduced relative to the other lifts and why they should be programmed at the end of a split program (the last day of the split program)?

How do deadlifts work more of the body than squats? What is the kinetic chain in both, the ROM in both, the muscle cross sectional area, and the loading in both?

not trying to be a dick, but shouldnt research test a hypothesis? im confident you wouldnt let bias alter your research, but i want your results to be as free from dishonest/poorly run allegations as possible.

Our hypothesis is that the current standard of care, i.e. a constant amino acid perfusion given parenterally, produces the optimal amount of skeletal muscle protein synthesis and accretion such that an alternate dosing schedule, i.e. bolused amino acid doses with the same nitrogen load over a 24hr period, does not increase skeletal muscle protein mass in any clinically significant way. The research will test this, though the ethics board is giving us fits right now.

[risepmj]

Sorry to hijack questions.
I have a some related questions.

Here is what i did for an exmaple
Mon AM:Squat 380lbsX5 @ 9
PM:Sprint

Tue Squat 310lbsX5 @ 9 (Hitted Rpe9 Due to yesterday's sprint)

-Does Tuesday squat spikes the MPS if i hit the Rpe 9 even though it's relatively light weight to my 1RM%?

-Would you consider Tuesday's squat for a weekly tonnage?

[downunder4]

Thanks for your time answering my questions (some of which were a little clumsy in hindsight), your willingness to share your knowledge is very much appreciated!