Deadlifts: Athleticism and Strength Demonstration

[Gary Gibson]

I've had to rethink the place of the deadlift in my training life.

I compete and therefore have been focusing on the style of deadlift that allows me to lift more: the sumo. Thing is I rarely train the deadlift at all, sumo or conventional, because I've been focusing on upping my squat and letting the squat gains just spill over into a higher deadlift.

Recent results in my quick lift performance, however, have caused me to rethinking my training approach. Sure the squat gains were allowing me to lift a bit more in the deadlift when I tested it, but I was still not getting the inimitable direct results of deadlifts because I wasn't actually deadlifting. There is, I suspect, some top range glutes and quads power and lumbar isometric strength the full benefit of which you can only get with the conventional deadlift. Squats work these things, but deadlifts work them better.

Now when it comes to picking up the heaviest possible weights for a single rep, the sumo deadlift shines...but I really don't think training the sumo will have near the athletic carryover that training the conventional deadlift will. In fact my experience over the last couple of years is bearing this out. BUT sumo spreads the legs and gets them out of the way so that the bar can be closer to the hips. This shortens the lever arm formed by the torso leaning over, thus reducing the torque on the spine. The lifter is much less likely to end up in the humped back "scared cat" position at limit weights (the kind that occur in competition). And, of course, sumo also lessens the distance the bar has to travel by ~25% (based on measurements of my own lifts). This all adds up to more weight lifted more safely under the rules of competition as they currently stand (nothing said about legs having to be inside the arms).

Thing is, sumo also requires a little technique that needs to be practiced in order to maximize the weight one can handle. When I first started using sumo it took me a couple of months and lots of frequent practice before I could exceed the weight I could use in the conventional stance. But I've just said that conventional very likely has more carryover to athletic movements (you get stronger in positions and joint angles that actually occur in sporting movements with conventional) and is a better developer of the back precisely because it exposes the back to more torque (which makes form more likely to break down at limit weights). What a conundrum!

The recommendation I've read repeatedly at the DragonDoor site makes a lot of sense here: train in the weaker stance for part of the cycle, then switch to the stronger stance as the weights get heavier. In this current cycle, for example, I plan to do the increasing volume phase with conventional, then switch to sumo (and base percentages on my sumo max) for the increasing intensity/ decreasing volume phase up to a new 1RM.

So conventional deadlifting will comprise at least half of my training time, but for competitive purposes--because I have to deadlift one-rep maxes--I will also train sumo as the meet approaches.

[Dastardly]

This is not really directly related to the sumo vs convential deadlift training issue but thought you might like to see it anyway.

Matt Kroczaleski talking about frequency of deadlifting and finding useful accessory exercises etc..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF8Fpssobvc

[Gary Gibson]

Yes, I've watched the clip before.

Something that I learned from Jack Reape a while ago is echoed here: stop deadlifting a lot further out from the meet than you stop benching or squatting. Jack has said bigger guys (with bigger lifts) should stop about two weeks out while smaller guys can get away with maybe just a week out.

Jack has pointed out that while the squat is the hardest thing on the (skeleto-)muscular system, the deadlift is hardest on the nervous system. Jack adds that this is probably because the deadlift taxes the grip and so many sensory and motor neurons are wired to our hands. And of course the deadlift beats up the lower back better than anything else and that set of muscles is notoriously slow to recover.

The short to that long? You can squat more often than you can deadlift, especially as you get stronger. (Westside used to take this notion pretty far and never pull from the floor during training, or so I've read; I haven't been to Columbus to observe their training). And you can squat a bit closer to meet time than you can deadlift. I moved things around this training cycle so that I begin with a deadlift day and my deadlift 1RM test day is eight days out from the meet, BUT I have that test in parentheses because I may not do it. If I'm feeling beaten up, then I'm going to stop the pulls six days before that (exactly 14 days from the meet) with the two doubles with the (former) 1RM.

[PMDL]

I didn't know you were a sumo puller. All that crap I said in the other thread was relevant as far as close-ish stance squats and conventional deadlifting. I've got no anecdote to chip in as far as sumo, since I haven't pulled a sumo deadlift since around 2003.

[Gary Gibson]

I didn't know you were a sumo puller. All that crap I said in the other thread was relevant as far as close-ish stance squats and conventional deadlifting. I've got no anecdote to chip in as far as sumo, since I haven't pulled a sumo deadlift since around 2003.

No worries. I figured you meant a regular/conventional stance. It just makes sense that a wide stance doesn't carryover to other athletic activities that occur in a close stance (jumping, running, weightlifting).

Like I said above, I recognize the wide stance deadlift for what it is: a way to reduce torque on the back and reduce the distance of the pull so as to lift heavier weights more safely within the confines of the competition rules as they currently stand.

[Gary Gibson]

Based on my deadlift and squat performance these past couple of days, my clean ratio isn't so bad.

I'd been assuming that I was still a 405 squatter and 445 deadlifter (conventional). Wrong. That was one month ago at the end of a couple of good training cycles and at a peak weight of ~176.

Right now I'm 167 lbs and detrained. 355x3 for a few sets on the deadlift were very hard. Tonight 325x3 for a few sets of squats nearly killed me (and I didn't hit my set target). I'd put my squat at about 365 right now and my deadlift at ~400. So my 175-180 power clean (best was an ugly 195, while 185 would often thwart me) is around 45%. Still puts me on the lower end of the expolosivity scale, but at least it's not the 40% I thought it was.

[Rootskier]

Still puts me on the lower end of the expolosivity scale, but at least it's not the 40% I thought it was.

First post, but I've been reading stuff here for awhile.

If you never practice cleans, so what? Do people really consider cleans/powercleans to be simply a demonstration of explosiveness that has no bearing on skill level?

It just seems weird that you basically don't train the clean but then expect somehow to be good at it. It's clearly a far more technical movement than the deadlift and lots of really strong dudes have terrible form on the clean (not slagging on you here).

Just for reference, I weigh 175, DL 440 and just clean and jerked 219 a few days ago.

[ZKP]

I agree to a point that certain exercises demonstrate strength well and can be good a good indicator of an athlete's prowess, but I believe we get good at and excel at what we do often and harder. If you want to clean a lot, then clean, a lot...Like everything else in your training you just have to balance it in with all your other exercises. The clean more so than the deadlift is hard for people because of it's complicated technical aspect. If anything's going to hold you back it's that, rather than CNS overload which is likely to occur in the DL(with a RSR turned deadlift cycle I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about). In my humble opinion and experience frequent practice of the exercise itself lends to greater gains in it than once/twice every week, balls out sessions. Do it often and you'll do it well. Month long peaking cycles, or multiple sub max days thrown in at random have both worked for me. Clean lots to clean a lot.
JMO

[JaKri]

I stalled at the DL this summer with the common programs, in which the DL is trained once per week. In my case this has something to do with my former squat technique I am trying to chance right now. But anytime I had the best progress - even in the DL - with a frequency of 2 times per week.

I have just made a good decision with resting for a whole week before testing the DL. From 190Kg to 200Kg in 6 weeks achieved by a shock programm with DL 4 times per week.