Some questions about front squats.

[Malcontent]

Due to various lingering injuries, form issues and anatomical anomalies I've completely switched from low bar to front squats. I'm not ideally proportioned for this exercise, as I frequently have people comment on my form and the amount of forward lean I use. After learning how to squat Rippetoe-style and many months of squatting like this, re-learning the 'standing leg press' and taking my ass out of the equation has been challenging.

I can do a tight, knees way beyond the toes and below parallel front squat with a reasonably vertical back, but I feel excessive pressure on my knees, and constant tension on my quadriceps. I prefer to go ass to grass, but due to antropometry, knee pathology and uncontrollable, instinctive hip drive this results in my ass shooting up and a 45 degree (estimation) forward lean. I have flexible shoulders and no issues keeping my elbows pointed up (well, up in relation to my back) so even with my 'excessive' forward lean my wrists never hurt and I'm not in danger of losing the bar. Nor do I lose tightness in my abs or lower back.

I'm getting a little tired of people (generally people who don't squat at all!) commenting on my form and warning me that I'm ruining my back, but I do take their comments seriously if there's any merit to it. It's just hard for me to judge if there is any.

So here are my questions:

1) what is considered acceptable forward lean in a front squat?
2) does the position of the bar across the front deltoids in combination with forward lean pose a greater risk of injuring the back, than the bar across the traps or in the low par position (given same amount of forward lean)?
3) what is the best way to keep your upper back safe during a front squat (with clean grip), is it by pushing your elbows in and spreading your lats, or by pushing your elbows out and squeezing them together?

Thank you for any insight.

[nisora33]

Due to various lingering injuries, form issues and anatomical anomalies I've completely switched from low bar to front squats. I'm not ideally proportioned for this exercise, as I frequently have people comment on my form and the amount of forward lean I use. After learning how to squat Rippetoe-style and many months of squatting like this, re-learning the 'standing leg press' and taking my ass out of the equation has been challenging.

I can do a tight, knees way beyond the toes and below parallel front squat with a reasonably vertical back, but I feel excessive pressure on my knees, and constant tension on my quadriceps. I prefer to go ass to grass, but due to antropometry, knee pathology and uncontrollable, instinctive hip drive this results in my ass shooting up and a 45 degree (estimation) forward lean. I have flexible shoulders and no issues keeping my elbows pointed up (well, up in relation to my back) so even with my 'excessive' forward lean my wrists never hurt and I'm not in danger of losing the bar. Nor do I lose tightness in my abs or lower back.

I'm getting a little tired of people (generally people who don't squat at all!) commenting on my form and warning me that I'm ruining my back, but I do take their comments seriously if there's any merit to it. It's just hard for me to judge if there is any.

So here are my questions:

1) what is considered acceptable forward lean in a front squat?
2) does the position of the bar across the front deltoids in combination with forward lean pose a greater risk of injuring the back, than the bar across the traps or in the low par position (given same amount of forward lean)?
3) what is the best way to keep your upper back safe during a front squat (with clean grip), is it by pushing your elbows in and spreading your lats, or by pushing your elbows out and squeezing them together?

Thank you for any insight.

Just a quick query first. Why with ongoing knee pathology would you choose to switch to the front squat? Folks who can't tolerate front squatting typically will tolerate high-bar or low-bar squatting much better, in my experience, because you're loading the hips much more dramatically with the latter two squat variations. Front squatting would have been my last recommendation. Front squatting is about the only version of the squat that does cause my knees to gripe, and your observation regarding "excessive pressure" on the knees is consistent with mine, and others', experience.

To answer your question regarding forward lean: if you get so leaned over that the bar drops off your shoulders and you miss the attempt, you've leaned too far forward. Of course, ideally you want to keep your back as vertical as possible throughout.

As far as injury to the back, there's several things to consider. It's not exactly cut-and-dry. Since you'll be using less weight front squatting that back squatting, you'd think there would be less risk of injury when form breaks down. But you've also got to consider that the spine presents a longer lever when front squatting as compared to when you low-bar squat, which is only compounded by the fact that the bar is sitting across your shoulders, creating a lever-arm the distance from your shoulder to your scapula. So when things go south, and you start leaning over, you'll be torquing the low back pretty badly.

Now it depends on who you talk to, but some people seem to think that the back handles sheer forces better than compressive forces and vice versa. I personally have less low back trouble with high and low bar squats than front squats, where compressive forces on the low back are higher, so take that for whatever it's worth.

Best way to protect the upper back? Well, keep the chin up slightly as if you're "sniffing the air," get the chest AND shoulders squeezed up, and jam the elbows toward the ceiling and keep 'em there. When shit starts getting heavy, I think of leading up out of the hole with my chest coming up FIRST.

-Stacey

[matclone]

One thing I like (and sometimes hate) about the front squat is that it's a brutally honest lift. If there's too much weight on the bar, the body tends to lean forward when coming up--I guess in an attempt to recruit something else to help the gasping legs. This can put great pressure on the lower back and potentially lead to injury (although I've never been injured doing a front squat). I think it's imperative to keep the upper body vertical, and to do this I keep the elbows up, the chest up, and tighten real hard the trunk muscles. If I do a hard set of front squats after not doing them for awhile, my abdominal obliques will be sore. If you can't keep the upper body vertical, maybe there is too much weight? Oh, and as you describe it, it seems that elbows out, squeezed lats is the better form, for that would help keep the chest up.

[Alex Bond]

Try doing some Frankenstein front squats:


This image is small and of poor quality, but you can google a better one if you like. The idea is to just balance the bar on your shoulders in the usual position but with your arms straight forward like stereotypical frankenstein, so that forward lean is unacceptable. A good way to force yourself to stay vertical. When I first started front squatting after lots of low bar back, I would lean forward all the time like you, what ended up fixing it was that I injured my wrist on a clean, and then I couldn't lean forward in my front squats since it would put painful pressure on my wrists. A month of front squatting with a perfectly vertical back as I recovered, and then boom, my front squat went shooting up and I was using good form. Obviously, I don't recommend you injure your wrist, but spend some time with low weights working on staying as upright as possible, a week or two of this and you will be able to increase the weight on the bar very quickly afterwards.

I agree that the front squat is a "brutally honest lift" and for that I love it, but I don't recommend you completely cut out back squatting. Front squatting can make the knees sore, and it is nice to mix it up with some squatting that is easier on the knees.

[Malcontent]

Thanks for the reply, Stacey. I'm not 100% sure what's going on with my knees as I've never had it properly diagnosed, although I'm sure an umbrella term such as patella femoral syndrome would be used in lieu of something more accurate and descriptive. I'd say I have 95% perfect mobility in my knees, and only if I relax at the bottom of a squat in a fully locked out position (i.e. unable to descend any deeper) will my knees crackle, pop, and grind as (I assume) the patella is pulled back into its proper groove while I ascend. This is not accompanied by pain, but it is worrisome. This isn't really relevant to why in particular I switched to front squats, but might be indicative of what specifically is wrong with them.

The reason for ditching back squats is twofold; I kept developing severe quadricreps tendonitis (although I trained through it, it only disappeared, and disappeared quickly when I switched to front squats) and reason two is I either have assymetrical hips, or one leg that is longer than the other, making an even descent with the bar on my back impossible. I do kind of a circular buttwiggle (not to be confused with buttwink!) as I go down. Aesthetics aside, I developed sciatica (long gone, thankfully) due to this (or at least that's what I blame).

My body compensates for this hip shifting either by knee wobble, or if I really focus on keeping my knees out, I lose trunk stability. I've experimented with slightly assymetrical foot positioning, which showed some promise but then the tendonitis came back in a hurry. I don't know why, but when I do front squats I can go ass to grass with perfect lumbar curve, keep my knees out better, and minimize the hip shifting (it's still there but almost imperceptible unless you're looking for it). I've been front squatting exclusively for several months now and have experienced zero discomfort from it. I also haven't experienced the gains I got while back squatting, but c'ets la vie.

The reason I'm worried about it now, is that yesterday while squatting, a man approached me from behind and grabbed me by the manboobs as I got up out of the hole. Apparently he was worried I might hurt myself (excluding more sinister motives for the moment). An experience I'd like to avoid in the future.

I managed to dug up a video of my front squats, it's from august or september of last year, when I first switched to front squats. Posted it on another forum back then, but opinions varied on the forward lean. My last front squat workout (this friday) I did 100kg (220lbs) for 5 sets of 3, which was very heavy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0KK5...layer_embedded

[nisora33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0KK5...layer_embedded

If it were me or someone I was training, I would want to fix the shooting of the hips pronto. While it may not present a problem in the immediate future, you need to think long-term. As the weight continues to get heavier, the problem isn't going to suddenly resolve itself and the low back torque will be magnified by however much weight you continue to place on the bar.

As for the hip wiggle you're experiencing, I've got that too. I think mine is a "functional" leg length discrepancy or some other issue with alignment that I can't fix on my own. If you've got the money, you should find a chiropractor (one who knows his or her shit, isn't a quack who claims he can cure your erectile dysfunction, the common cold, or some other hoakey bullshit), one possibly versed in multiple therapeutic modalities so he can throw as much shit at the problem as possible.

-S.

[Malcontent]

Thanks again for the reply. I can do a front squat with a more vertical back angle (as much as antropometry allows) by keeping my knees way out in front of my toes throughout the movement. This is what the frankestein squat would look like. This means my hips don't shoot up, as shown in the video (thus saving my lower back). However, the pressure on my knees worries me.

So from where I'm sitting I'm either messing up my knees, or my lower back. All I can do is choose between the lesser of two evils. :| This sounds whiny, but I've been working on my form for a long time, and it's frustrating.

Will try the more vertical approach tomorrow and maybe shoot another video.

[Malcontent]

Tried the frankenstein squats today. Felt surprisingly comfortable, stable and easy up to 60kg (could have done more but deemed it unnecessary). The walkout is a little unstable though, because there's no way to horizontally stabilize the bar. Some issues with choking as well, as the bar rests closer to your throat than it does with a clean grip.

Did my work sets with much more forward knee travel and upright back. Couldn't use the same amount of weight, and really felt my quads doing most of the work. Pressure on my knees was less than anticipated, we'll see how I feel in the morning. Didn't really enjoy squatting like this, so I'm still questioning whether I should change my technique or not.

My back squats have a lot of forward lean, I'd estimate abour 60 degrees at my most horizontal point. Given the position of the bar, wouldn't 60 degrees of forward lean with a low bar squat be equivalent to 40/45 degrees forward lean in a front squat? I.e, roughly the same amount of pressure on the lower back? If not, why not?

[matclone]

My back squats have a lot of forward lean, I'd estimate abour 60 degrees at my most horizontal point. Given the position of the bar, wouldn't 60 degrees of forward lean with a low bar squat be equivalent to 40/45 degrees forward lean in a front squat? I.e, roughly the same amount of pressure on the lower back? If not, why not?

I don't know about the degrees, but I know front squats should be done with a vertical upper body, otherwise there is a risk of injury. Btw, I finally read Rip's article on "The Squat, or How I Learned to Stop Leg Pressing..." last night and he goes into a fine detailed explanation as to the differences b/t low bar and high bar squats and front squats, and includes drawings of the same, and maybe even degrees of angle.

[Malcontent]

I've read that article, and if I recall correctly he mentions the vertical back is necessary to keep the trajectory of the bar over the midfoot. Unless I missed it he doesn't mention increased injury potential. When I examine my ft. squat video, the bar tracks over the midfoot the entire time. It's just that I look awkward doing it.

I'm not a giant but I am of above average height (6'3") and my femurs are very long in comparison to my torso, so keeping a vertical back (or max forward lean of 15 degrees as often recommended) is impossible. I do think my forward lean is excessive, but it's so hard to get rid of and I've experienced no discomfort from it (yet?).

Imagine the most awkward front squat antropometry available, and I think I come pretty close.