If your back is your weak point, then I would submit that maybe it's not through with its novice progression. What are the chances your form is less-than-perfect? Maybe video would be in order.
Member
Lower back questions
Hey Rip, I was putting off asking this question, hoping I could resolve the issue on my own, but I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts. I'm 5'7", 180-185 lbs, and my max set weights are: squat 365x5x3, deadlift 395x5 (sloppy), bench 240x5x3, press 160x5x3. Ive been tinkering with advanced novice, trying to squeeze as much as i can out of it before switching to TM, but i believe that time has come.
Anyways, a couple weeks back I went for a max squat and completed 405. My lower back is my weak point, and it was a pretty big fight to stop that squat from turning too good morning-ish. I felt fine the next few days after, so I went to the gym to do some light squatting. I warmed up how i always do, but once i got to 225 my lower back started cramping up and feeling very very sore, which was strange because it felt fine before i started squatting. I did 2 sets of 5 at 275 and left the gym. I then didnt do any lifting for a week or so, and have now been getting back into it this past week. On sunday I did 275x5x3 and on tuesday i did 285x5x3. again, once i got under 225, my lower back felt sore. nowhere near as bad as it did that one day, but it feels like the very low back (connective tissue or something ) isnt 100%.
I'm curious if you've seen or experienced this before, and have any recommendations on how to proceed from here. I'm not terribly worried about it. i think if i continue progressing slowly through these light weights it will sort itself out. Also, squatting sets it off more than anything else - deadlifts seem to be ok with it.
And lastly (i know you've probably answered this question a number of times) do you have any advice on how to set TM up to address a low back weakness? i tried adjusting my advanced novice template to do this, but I dont think I did the best job at it. the TM template i plan on running is one that i saw Andy (KSC) post, and it has extra low back/hammy work:
Mon:
Squat 5x5
bench/press 3x5 (still novice)
Good Mornings 3x5
Wed:
Light Squat
bench/press
pulls or chins
Fri:
Squat 5 singles
bench/press
Deadlift 1 single
SLDL 1x8-10
I like the idea of singles on intensity day, since i want to compete and would like to get some practice doing them. But heres my question: If my low back is my weak point, wont it be taking a larger beating than the other muscle groups used while squatting? and if so, wouldnt doing accessory work on it just be forcing it to do even more work, making it harder to recover from all the workload its being put through? I guess it just seems like the squatting should help equalize things out in the long run, and by doing accessory work, you're just overtaxing an already stressed area. But i dont really know much, and if that were true, than it probably wouldnt still be a weak point for me. But yeah, does that TM template look good for addressing a lower back weakness, or do you have any suggestions for me?
Sorry that was a little long winded, and thanks Rip.
TMPHBITEU
If your back is your weak point, then I would submit that maybe it's not through with its novice progression. What are the chances your form is less-than-perfect? Maybe video would be in order.
Starting Strength Coach
I think you have form issues with your squat or deadlift or perhaps both.
The program that I drew up for myself (and subsequently posted) is most likely not the right one for you. In my situation, I felt like my low back/hamstrings were not getting ENOUGH work. I never got back cramps or pain, especially not during 225 lb squats. In your situation I don't think I would throw in 5RM Goodmornings and 8-10RM SLDLs on top of back pain. Also, the above program is really only for short term usage.....most people who can handle any appreciable amount of weight on GM's, Deads, and SLDL's cannot do so all in the same week for very long. I found it useful for about a 6 week run to kind of "jolt" my deadlift out of a sticking point. It worked, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone with back pain.
Get your form ironed out first on the squat and the dealift. Also...in the above program Goodmornings are done for 5 x 5 (pyramiding weight each set) and Power cleans are done for 10-15 moderate-heavy singles on Wednesday.
Member
I have the same problem. Could be a number of things. If when you drop into the hole your weight is not fully on your heels you are going move forward and immediately engage more of your lower back. My solution to this is to wiggle my toes as I drop down into the attempt. This seems to force my brain to keep the weight firmly on my heels.
Your glutes might not be activating. Are you noticeably squeezing your ass as you come out of the hole. If not your should look into some sort of muscle activation therapy to get your glutes working. Once I solved that my lower back issues disappeared overnight.
Where is your head ? I learned that the damn mirror in front of me was causing me to keep my head up instead of in a neutral position aligned with my back. For some reason this caused my lower back to be used more than it should on the way up.
With that said I still do struggle with the same thing as you. Just try to constantly be aware of it.
Member
Good thing to hear Kevin, I thought I was crazy. It took me like like 20 workouts to hit a reasonable technique with no coaching(lol?) I learned a lot on myself during the process.Originally Posted by kevin1969
One of the things I noticed is that my erectors spinae group is working a hell lot more when I don't look down while going through the set, which was a bit hard to accomplish at the start, because I used to look down, then after the bounce look at the damn mirror in front of the squat cage it was hard squatting in front of it, as it's like 1 meter in front of u(can't even look a few meters ahead on the ground because the cage is so damn close to the mirror).
I thought I was probably paranoid, but I guess you noticed this same effect.
Another thing, for me atleast, is the warmups for the squat. I must do a couple of heavy singles before the actual lift, and I have to do like 4 easy sets, so in total my warmup would be like 5 sets (with 3 unweighted stretches before) without the belt, and last 2 singles belted followed by the 3X5, if I don't do as many warmups I would most likely not hit proper depth or my first set would be awful. maybe your warmup to the big weights is unsufficient?
Anyways, I think I read at the NSCA website, that while they tested the erector activity during the squat and the deadlift(same weights ofc, with like a group of 20 individuals) it was actually shown that they worked more on the squat- Coach Rip any insight on this one? and is it true with LB squats as well?
Member
"muscle activation therapy"?
TMPHBITEU
Only the NSCA could find a way to deadlift without the erectors.
Member
My low back is fine, I just tweaked it because i decided to go for a max after a few weeks of inconsistent lifting (like a dumbass). It felt much better today, with no cramping or soreness while squatting.
I tried taking a video of my squats today, but the $50 pocket camcorder i got off of ebay to take videos at the gym for form critiques decided to crap out on me while filming the first set. I've never had a coach, so I'm sure there are issues with squat and deadlift, but I've been watching Rip videos for years, have read the book, and invested a lot of time into working on my form. If I can borrow a camera, or mine decides to start working again, I'll post up a vid.
As for that TM template, thanks for affirming my suspicion, Andy, that the GM's and SLDL's would be way too much work for my low back. I've reset my advanced novice template 4 times, but i think I can squeak out another 20 lbs or so with another run at it, so it will be some time before I switch programs. Thanks for the replies.
-Steve
Member
Exactly !! I have the same issue. I just realized that on my last 2 workouts. I try to find that perfect spot to look but with the mirror in the way it makes it difficult. There is a tendency to look at your own face during the squat so perhaps picking a different body part to look at might fix that. I'm still working this out myself.
Member
Yup. Few chiropractors understand the concept. I found one that did and was shocked at how even a neck alignment issue can cause your glutes to completely shut down. When a muscle shuts down other muscles have to do more work to compensate for it. There are certain exercises you can do to re-train your body to activate previously shut down muscles. The difference is amazing.
Before I knew my glutes weren't working my lower back was the most sore after squatting. Now it is still a bit sore but my abs and ass are what hurt the most now.
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