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Thread: High Pull vs Power Clean

  1. #1
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    Default High Pull vs Power Clean

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    I listened to Boyd Epley give a talk a few weeks back. He was the S&C for Nebraska from the 70s through the 90s. Good talk, emphasized squatting, eating, not running ect ect.

    A key point he made was that the clean portion of the power clean was irrelevant to athletic performance (RE: Strength). That actually racking the bar had no bearing on an athletes strength or performance, basically, it's show.

    They simply performed high pulls (From a deadlift position, pull it, hip triple extension, pull the bar past nipple, which means bending the elbows and nearly hitting your chin).

    Basically, pull it the same heigh as a PC, just never turn it over.

    I performed some yesterday in place of PCs on Madcow's. Felt fantastic (outside of hitting myself in the chin). Felt it in the hammies/glutes and it flat out destroyed the traps.

    I read the Starr article as well.

    For me, the rack has always been the limiting factor for my Cleans. I can pull significantly more than I can get under. Since I have no desire to compete in Oly lifting, not sure what point there is in me racking the weight.

    Just curious what others think .

  2. #2
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    Having to rack makes you commit to pulling the bar high enough. At least that's Rip's opinion on the subject.

  3. #3
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    High pulls are certainly 'easier' than the clean, because there's really no way to fail the lift. My take on them is that they're an assistance exercise used to improve the clean; but if you aren't going to clean, then what's the point? If this coach actually said the clean was irrelevant to athletic performance, he probably doesn't know how to do the movement correctly himself. It's an extremely athletic movement, it trains power development in the hips, strength to an extent, coordination, timing, balance. None of that happens in the high pull UNLESS you treat it the same as you do the clean, which naturally won't happen if you don't know how to clean. It's not a big deal if you just want to get stronger, and you don't have any competitive athletic pursuits. But if you do, it's an extremely valuable, probably essential, lift.

  4. #4
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    To insinuate that a 30 year strength coach veteran, hell, one of the guys who has made such a profound impact on how S&C is done today just simply doesn't know the lift is a pretty stupid statement. More than likely he knows something you dont, or that you chose to ignore. But, I do enjoy this discussion as it comes up every few months and I am convinced that Epley would be correct.

    As long as the extension is aggressive and that you dont duck down to the bar to reach acceptable bar height, you will do just fine. Weightlifters are sportsmen, not athletes. They can spend hours on the refining of the particular skills of the lift, athletes do not have that luxury. If you are an athlete, you will invest greater training time improving on field movement skills and chosing lifting movements that are supplemental with high training economy. I will use high pulls as a power developer. The extension of the hip during the lift , to me at times, can help develop power. The catch is a technical formality, not a valid training component. For an athlete, the entire point of doing the lift in the first place is to develop hip power not tighten up the beauty and safety of the catch and the overall movement. Athletes do specific skillwork and supplemental lifting to become better athletes. Only a basic sportsmen(weightlifter) or begining athlete will get any sort of training response during the catch of the bar on a clean. It is not necessary for any athlete at even the intermediate level.

    I've been lucky enough to observe multiple training sessions for nearly all the college D-1 level and a number of pro level sports in the southeast.(I work in MS) Once you see guys moving around at such an elite level you realize that the idea of simply catching a bar correctly during the clean might make these guys a higher level athlete is so foolish and insane its not even worth mentioning. Also, while many of those same programs have an olympic movement involved, the moment a high level guy/girl brings up a sore wrist, back, neck, whatever, the lift is dropped.

    Sportsmen = your personal mastery is indirectly challenged by your or somone elses level of personal mastery(weightlifting,most track and field events, competetive eating, bowling, skeet shooting,etc)
    Athlete = your personal mastery is directly challenged by somone elses.(MMA,Boxing,Football,Soccer,Basketball,etc)

    Out of arrogance, most folks think they are athletes when in reality, they are not.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeC1 View Post
    High pulls are certainly 'easier' than the clean, because there's really no way to fail the lift. My take on them is that they're an assistance exercise used to improve the clean; but if you aren't going to clean, then what's the point? If this coach actually said the clean was irrelevant to athletic performance, he probably doesn't know how to do the movement correctly himself. It's an extremely athletic movement, it trains power development in the hips, strength to an extent, coordination, timing, balance. None of that happens in the high pull UNLESS you treat it the same as you do the clean, which naturally won't happen if you don't know how to clean. It's not a big deal if you just want to get stronger, and you don't have any competitive athletic pursuits. But if you do, it's an extremely valuable, probably essential, lift.
    He knows how to do the movement. His point was it's the pull that generates the hip drive that you are looking for, not the rack. The rack, in his words, was fluff.

    Glen had an excellent post, and the issue of the injury potential on the "rack" portion of the lift is probably a big factor. The talk was directed to high school coaches teaching high school athletes to lift (and, Mr. Epley was teaching college athletes). The risk/time investment of racking the weight wasn't worth the reward (if there even is one) of catching the bar.

    What it boils down to is: What is the benefit of the rack movement itself? Once the pull is complete and you flip the bar and get under it, what is that working?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Draconian View Post
    He knows how to do the movement. His point was it's the pull that generates the hip drive that you are looking for, not the rack. The rack, in his words, was fluff.

    Glen had an excellent post, and the issue of the injury potential on the "rack" portion of the lift is probably a big factor. The talk was directed to high school coaches teaching high school athletes to lift (and, Mr. Epley was teaching college athletes). The risk/time investment of racking the weight wasn't worth the reward (if there even is one) of catching the bar.

    What it boils down to is: What is the benefit of the rack movement itself? Once the pull is complete and you flip the bar and get under it, what is that working?
    Co-ordination?

    Not much probably, but it's a good gateway to Oly lifts.
    The way I understand it, the power should be generated from the jump, and the bar should land in the rack position. I guess you could do high pulls the same way, with no real difference.

    It's difficult to tell in the videos, but it looks similar to an upright row -which has been said to be bad for the shoulders (reference?)
    I'm sure if you learn this from a proper coach they would make sure you do it properly. I can forsee retards on the internet trying to power-row though...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Draconian View Post
    What it boils down to is: What is the benefit of the rack movement itself? Once the pull is complete and you flip the bar and get under it, what is that working?
    Nothing. One the bar hits the jump position no more real work is done until the bar hits the ground and the next pull is performed. However, its not about how much work is done during the extra length of the pull, but how much more needs to be done to get the bar that high in the first place. As has been mentioned, there are limitations to the high pull (how do you know you've replicated the same pull on every rep? How do you really know you're preogressing?)

    Also, you have to remember the purpose of the clean in the general program. It mimics the deadlift movement, but with lighter weight thus allowing the movement to be terained more frequently. However, to get the strength benefit, the pull must be done with an absolute 100% effort otherwise, with the lower weight, the highest threshold motor units are not activiated. It's the same principal as DE days in a westside like approach. Rip argues that the longer pull of the clean is required for lifters to fully committ to it. Its a convincing arguement although I know some coaches who dont see it as a problem. However, the biggest problem is that it neccessitates an exchange of extra weight for less speed of movement. Given the overall purpose of lift in Rip's program that is unlikely going to be a beneficial exchange for many people.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen View Post
    Sportsmen = your personal mastery is indirectly challenged by your or somone elses level of personal mastery(weightlifting,most track and field events, competetive eating, bowling, skeet shooting,etc)
    Athlete = your personal mastery is directly challenged by somone elses.(MMA,Boxing,Football,Soccer,Basketball,etc)

    Out of arrogance, most folks think they are athletes when in reality, they are not.
    Hmm.... "athletics"?
    Athlete from the greek ath-somethingorother... contestant in the games with various changes in use via latin and wherever else it went. Oh and just to be sure... the very first events in the ancient games were track events.

    I'm not so sure "athlete" carries so much weight one could be called arrogant for using it.

  9. #9
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    The rack of the power clean is very important upper back builder. So it's still useful.

  10. #10
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    I asked this same question to a former head DI and NFL strength coach, and he said that the rack is useful (in a football athlete context) for stabilizing the body under a heavy eccentric force. He felt this was valuable and provided performance benefits that applied on the field.

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