Vitamins and minerals education...

[David_G]

This thread contains some questions at the end.
This might serve as a wake up call for others who are ignorant to the issue(like myself) and those who are mis-informed.

I have finished reading Starr TSSS, the truly amazing and life chaning(no exaggerations here) chapters were the ones concerning vitamins, minerals and super foods.

It is evident that the Recommended Dietary Allowance by any large organization like the FDA or any other equivalent western organizations(Israel is 95% similar to the FDA's recommendations) are ridiculously LOW vitamin/mineral recommendations. It comes to hundreds to thousands percents lower then what a hard working trainee should take.

I will take vitamin C as an example, the normal intake "recommendation" for the average male is between 75-90mg, this is what you get in a normal multi-vitamin you purchase, or if you don't have one, in 2-3 oranges(if you are lucky you get that amount from the latter, with the whole food processing and human interference that eliminates so many good things I doubt you even get that much)
The soviets gave their weightlifters 4000-8000 mg(this is from starr's book), which obviously is not possible without taking pills.
The book of course goes on with shitloads of more examples of vitamins and minerals, it really would be a life changing experience to someone who was ignorant to the whole matter(like myself) and that involves heavy training, and you would be rewarded under the bar as you set new PRs.

I searched for an all around pack of some sort but none are available in my country, and the ones I can order are too expensive and not economic so I prefer taking everything separately(saves me like 50% costwise!)
I have since purchased magnesium, vitamin B complex, vitamin E, vitamin C and that's in addition to my basic multivitamin and fatty acids(omega 3)

I am training 3 times a week and in between I have a 1 hour swimming session once a week(work related, I work as a swimming instructor after I finish my studies and am obliged to swim once a week)
I am now recovering much faster then before, and that's while breaking new PRs, not while going through any resets in the squat/bench/deadlift/press/PC, I would recommend everyone to buy Starr's book and try reaching 60-70% of the recommended dosage, as many don't even reach 10% from food alone(including the ones drinking half a gallon of milk and eating half a dozen eggs a day)


While searching for recommended books I did not find an up to date book who could teach me a bit more about vitamins and minerals, the books in Starr's reference lists are 40-50 years old and his book itself is from the 70's(still up to date by many means though today more then ever!)
Tried looking it up myself but the latest books relevant were around the mid 80's.

Rip,
Any good book/paper from the last 5 years you would recommend or have me read which is heavy training-oriented like Starr's book? wanting to look further into the whole matter...

Sully your opinion as a practitioner on the whole vitamin/mineral recommendations is of great interest for me as well, my doctor and fuck it, any nutritionist I know didn't recommend anything for my diet, not even a multivitamin or special fatty acid(well a couple of nuts, but still...)

[Mark Rippetoe]

I don't have any other reference recommendations. Starr got most of his information from Adele Davis's first book, Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit. The only supplement I sell here at WFAC is a Beverly International Super-Pak, and it's been a very long time since I thought anything but this and some fish oil was all that is really necessary.

[Roland Conde]

Unless you accounted for all other variables, I think it would be difficult to say the vitamins were the reason for the results you saw. But as long as you're not OD'ing on any of them, more power to you and I hope it works out well.

[Tiburon]

While searching for recommended books I did not find an up to date book who could teach me a bit more about vitamins and minerals,

You can read the entire Dietary Reference Intakes from the Institute Of Medicine online. Here is Vitamin C for example:
http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=9810

These are fair, relatively unbiased summaries of the extant literature, used for setting the DRIs in the US (such as the RDAs, Upper Levels, Estimated Average Requirements (not the same the RDA), and the AIs). As for the generalizability of that research to the "hard working trainee," well, that's up to you to decide.

The macronutrient / energy book is perhaps the most interesting.

[Dastardly]

Adele davis was exposed as somewhat of a quack. There were lawsuits against her for deaths caused through her poor advice. I have TSSS and an pretty much all of starr's articles. They are great, he is obviously an excellent coach and writer. But I think we need to take some of the dietary recommendations with a pinch of salt. He had limited information to go by in the seventies when he put the book together. (Even real medical professionals and researchers had limited information) compared to the information we have access to now.

Bill even strongly recommends against saturated fat in the book, and recommends common vegetable oils as a good source of healthy fat. We know that this is pretty outdated for sure! If I remember correctly, he also recommends soy beans/soy protein in the book. We all now know about the rather significant phytoestrogen.

The quantities of Vitamins and minerals he recommends are enormous. One might understand 10x RDA, but he recommends things (If I recall correctly) in quantities up to a hundred times RDA. You actually approach toxicity at these extreme levels risking brain, kidney & heart problems for example with Calcium hyperdosing, irreversible sensory neuropathy from Vitamin B6, bleeding and stroke from excess Vitamin E and much more.

These things are reported to occur, when taking high levels of supplementation over many months. So you could probably get away for it for a while, but you never know when a problem might arise in the long term. Also you dont know what might happen if you no longer have access to something after taking in in 100xRDA doses for years. Taking the recommended amount is also difficult and expensive, possibly equal to Dianabol - and we know what would be more effective.

A good diet will probably have you covered for all your nutritional needs, but just in case of doubt a vitamin & mineral supplements amounting to a less extreme sum will help fill in any gaps. Even Beverly Super Pak has some extremely high yet inconsistent quantities. Like 10000% RDA of Thiamin (B1) , Yet only 50% RDA for Biotin. Who knows what kind of effect it would have long term.

[Mark Rippetoe]

The quantities of Vitamins and minerals he recommends are enormous. One might understand 10x RDA, but he recommends things (If I recall correctly) in quantities up to a hundred times RDA. You actually approach toxicity at these extreme levels risking brain, kidney & heart problems for example with Calcium hyperdosing, irreversible sensory neuropathy from Vitamin B6, bleeding and stroke from excess Vitamin E and much more.

These things are reported to occur, when taking high levels of supplementation over many months. So you could probably get away for it for a while, but you never know when a problem might arise in the long term. Also you dont know what might happen if you no longer have access to something after taking in in 100xRDA doses for years. Taking the recommended amount is also difficult and expensive, possibly equal to Dianabol - and we know what would be more effective.

I understand your point here, but Starr HAS ACTUALLY BEEN TAKING these doses for 40 years, so the toxicity claims must be called into question. And I assure you that vitamins are and have always been cheaper than Dianabol.

[Roland Conde]

I understand your point here, but Starr HAS ACTUALLY BEEN TAKING these doses for 40 years, so the toxicity claims must be called into question. And I assure you that vitamins are and have always been cheaper than Dianabol.

Indeed. A cursory glance reveals conflicting information regarding toxicity for many of these suggested supplements, even beyond Starr's individual case.

[Behemoth]

Rip, what kind of vitamin/fish oil dosage would you recommend?

[Tiburon]

Indeed. A cursory glance reveals conflicting information regarding toxicity for many of these suggested supplements, even beyond Starr's individual case.

It depends on the goals and the definitions. In the USA, the Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL)

"the highest level of daily nutrient intake that is likely to pose no risk of adverse health effects to almost all individuals in the general population. As intake increases above the UL, the risk of adverse effects increases. The term tolerable is chosen because it connotes a level of intake that can, with high probability, be tolerated biologically by individuals; it does not imply acceptability of this level in any other sense."

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9810&page=73

[Mark Rippetoe]

Rip, what kind of vitamin/fish oil dosage would you recommend?

I take about 10 a day. I am not a fish oil authority.