Somebody explain this style of pulling technique...

[Dastardly]

For cleans & snatches, I often read/hear people talk about how keeping hips in a extra low for the start provides an advantageous position for the second pull.

I have never quite been able to understand this characteristic. Anybody care to shed some light?

[MattJ.D.]

They might set their hips low but they always move up into the correct position before the bar leaves the floor, this is one of Rip's gripes. Also I don't understand how setting hips lower would help with second pull because the more acute the angel between the torso and legs(the hip angel?) the more force transfer for the second pull, at least thats what I've read on this board, specifically in the "why USA weightlifting sucks" thread.

[MikeC1]

I don't agree with the argument, but since you're looking, Greg Everett made a nice attempt to explain it in one of the articles on his website.

[Michael Wolf]

I don't agree with the argument, but since you're looking, Greg Everett made a nice attempt to explain it in one of the articles on his website.

Here's the link: http://www.catalystathletics.com/art...p?articleID=49

It's long, but I'll have to read through it. I like Rip's argument for the higher hip, 'deadlift' starting position, and have never really heard anyone attempt to counter it with anything other than "that's what the best lifters do" or "read the russian literature" or similar responses. Should be interesting.

[Dastardly]

That article is excellent and covers exactly what I was thinking about. I was sure ive seen lifters maintain the low hips position and this confirms it with some examples. It'll take me a while to read through it all, nice an in depth. Hopefully it actually explains why the 2nd pull benefits.

I do however know that the method that Rip advocates is the same as Tommy Kono and also the traditional soviet method too.

[Brian Zahn]

That article is excellent and covers exactly what I was thinking about. I was sure ive seen lifters maintain the low hips position and this confirms it with some examples. It'll take me a while to read through it all, nice an in depth. Hopefully it actually explains why the 2nd pull benefits.

I do however know that the method that Rip advocates is the same as Tommy Kono and also the traditional soviet method too.

Perhaps they lifters who have their hips lower simply have the anthropometry to support such a low hip starting point? Which is perhaps why they're good Snatchers?

[Dastardly]

We are talking about keeping the hips LOWER than what anthropometry would determine if we simply followed the Rip/Kono/Soviet method. Which is the same as a deadlift. The alternate method involves pulling from a position which is upright as possible with vertical arms, not "shoulder in front of the bar".

Your comment about the snatch is interesting, as the theory behind the hips-high soviet/kono/rip method supposedly allows you to add more momentum to the bar as you are using a greater ROM of the hip and with a longer lever arm to throw the weight up.

[IndividualThoughtPatterns]

By starting lower (not extra low or whatever- just low enough that your shoulders are directly over the bar) you more efficientlly initiate the pull with your legs, making the bar coming of the floor towards you (instead of straight up) while shifting the weight towards rearfoot. It also prevents the bar from going away from you after explosion (presumebly the USA lifter's problem).

And by the way: ''Understand that hip height is a product of our two basic position criteria (bar over the balls of the feet and arms vertical from side), not a criterion itself.'' From the link posted above.

[IndividualThoughtPatterns]

I like Rip's argument for the higher hip, 'deadlift' starting position, and have never really heard anyone attempt to counter it with anything other than "that's what the best lifters do" or "read the russian literature" or similar responses. Should be interesting.

The internet is full of counter arguements- just not this forum for the obvious resons.
And the "read the russian literature" is VERY good counter point, wouldn't you agree?

[PFerrari]

By starting lower (not extra low or whatever- just low enough that your shoulders are directly over the bar) you more efficientlly initiate the pull with your legs, making the bar coming of the floor towards you (instead of straight up) while shifting the weight towards rearfoot. It also prevents the bar from going away from you after explosion (presumebly the USA lifter's problem).

And by the way: ''Understand that hip height is a product of our two basic position criteria (bar over the balls of the feet and arms vertical from side), not a criterion itself.'' From the link posted above.

This is right on for the low(er) hip school of thought.

Coach Don McCauley has some very interseting youtube videos about this and he really focuses on "sweeping" the bar in right from the start of the first pull.

I think that a lot of people who SS are able to "get away" with higher hips, because they are doing power cleans which should be less weight than a full clean (although not always the case initially due to technique/mobility/etc). When you use a lighter weight you aren't as at risk of being pulled forward.