Chin-up Progressions

[Winona77]

Hey everyone,

The end of this week marks 1 month of SS with good progress, and after bringing my deadlift up nearly +120lbs I have decided to switch from 3x a week deadlift to 1.5 DL, 1.5 Powercleans (as per the novice guide). I finally got the deadlift pretty controlled, and am excited to learn power cleans. To start them, I am going to start at a low weight to work on form.

Because my cleans will mostly work on form, I want to add more pulling. From Pratical Programming and most recommendations here, I have decided to add a set of chin-ups at the end of my power clean days. However, I can currently do only 1 chin-up at body weight (225lbs with long lanky arms).

So my question is, what is the best way to make progression at chin-ups? I currently see four decent options:

A. Start with vertical rows in the smith machine rack (I don't feel bad taking it up at my gym), starting at sets of 3x5 at hip height, then doing 3x10 and then 3x15, and after that move the barbell down a few pegs. Pros: good back work out, easy to mark progress. Cons: does not incorporate body control.

B. Do negative chin-up holds, 3x5 focusing on holding for longer (starting at around ~2 seconds, progressing to 10 seconds) and working on a slow of possible descent. Pros: practices form and body stabilization. Cons: Draining, and negative only has it's own problems.

C. Use the chin-up assistance machine, starting at a weight that is difficult and doing 3x5, working on decreasing weight by -5lbs each workout? Pros: Good ab work, easy to mark progress. Cons: It's like a smith machine, the machine balances all the weight.

D. Do grease-the-grove chins, doing 5x1 sets of jump chins until I can do more than one. Pros: full-form chinups, uses balance. Cons: Low rep sets, hardest to mark progress.

What do you guys think, any other ways to progress on chin-ups before they can be done in sets?

Here is a video of a bar workout master, Al Kavadlo's guide to progressive chins/pulls which provides a good guide of progressive difficulty but not much for programming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utjNyrxIgA4

[subwindow]

I believe the book recommends just a little bit of jump. I think that's not very helpful if the hardest part is the last 6 inches, as it is for me.

I dislike the chin assistance machine- the movement is altered completely and it feels unnatural. I don't know of anybody who has recommended them here, but I like lat pulldowns. If you keep your torso rigid they do a reasonably good job of simulating the movement.

[Tamara Reynolds]

I've posted this before, but will post again here. Since you have a single chin up, you would NOT use bands for 10 x 1. You would do as many sets of 1 as possible. If it's seriously just 1 or 2, then rest more. If it's still seriously just 1 or 2, then do 1 or 2 and then use the lightest band for the rest of 10 x 1 or 10 x 2.

This sounds complicated, but it's really not. We use the Pullup Assist at my gym, and everyone gets chins doing it this way. In your case, I'd go ahead and start with 3 times a week since you DO have a chin, as long as it doesn't make you so sore or fuck up your bench/press.

This is my response to the question of how to help someone get their first pullup:

First of all, if someone cannot do ten consecutive pushups from their toes, I would not put them on a pullup bar yet. I'm not saying that 10 is a hard and fast rule, but if someone cannot do 10 consecutive pushups, then I don't think they have the shoulder and "core" strength to be able to safely do a pullup. I'm not saying this applies to everyone specifically, but I just want to throw this out there as a qualifier that I use because I like to err on the side of caution as a person with a prior shoulder injury and as a non-fucking-stupid coach.

I use bands for pullups. You either need two bands to start or you need the Rage Pullup Assist. We use the Rage Pullup Assist at my gym because it is easy to gauge - you either need one, two, or three bands for your sets, and all of the bands are the same resistance. Using the Pullup Assist, once three bands becomes easy, then you move down to two bands, etc. Plus, the Pullup Assist is MUCH cheaper than buying separate bands through Rogue or MuscleDriver, etc. You can find it at http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Fitness-P...pull+up+assist.

If you buy separate bands then it's kind of a guessing game, which is why I don't like it. If you are at a gym that already has a bunch of bands, that's perfect. But, if you have to buy your own bands, I would totally use the Pullup Assist. The first (heavier) band should be the lightest one where you can do 2 sets of 10 pullups without failing a rep. There is a possibility that some people won't be able to do 10 pullups on the heaviest available band, and that's okay. In that case, use the heaviest band and do 2 sets of max reps. The second (lighter) band should be the lightest band where you can only manage to do one or two reps before you fail a rep. Since single bands can be expensive if you have to buy them yourself, it would make sense to try to find two lighter bands of different resistance that when used together could serve as the heavier band if you don't want to buy the Pullup Assist for some reason. Because the goal is to move down in resistance, and you want as many options as possible for resistance.

Workout A: 2 (or 3) x 10 pullups followed by 5 negatives

Workout B: 10 x 1 pullups followed by 5 negatives

For workout A, as soon as you have a two weeks of doing 2 x 10 , you are going to move to 3 x 10 (or 2 x 10 plus 1 x max reps if you can't get 10 on the final set). As soon as you get to 3 x 10 consistently, you will want to move down to the next lightest band and start the process over at 3 x 10 or 3 x max reps if you cannot get 10 reps on each set.

For workout B, you are going to allow yourself enough rest time in between reps so that you can get 10 x 1 reps without failure. If you find the lightest band that you can do a single pullup and can't get to 10 reps with rest, fine. Do singles for max sets and try to add a set each time.

For workout B, as soon as you get to 10 x 1 consistently, you will try to do doubles on as many sets as possible until you get to 5 x 2. Then you will repeat the process to try to get triples on as many sets as possible. If the band you are using for this workout is not the lightest band available, then she can move down to the next lightest band and repeat the process. If it IS the lightest band and you are doing triples on it, then you are probably really close to doing an unassisted pullup.

So, workout A might be Monday, and workout B might be Thursday. I would start with twice a week and see how sore you are. Once you know you aren't going to be super sore, then add a third day per week. I would do Workout B again, or you could alternate with one week being ABA and then next week being BAB.
I am also not opposed to lat pulldowns. I was doing lat pulldowns, and I ended up with a dead hang pullup a lot faster than most girls I know.

I had a lot of success greasing the groove to improve my pushups, and I know that some people do this for pullups. You could try alternating A and B on Mon/Wed/Fri instead of just Tues/Thurs. But, like I said, gauge your soreness. I just know lots of people who have had overuse injuries from pullups, and that happened to me more than once as well. So, I would be careful not to get too crazy with reps.

As soon as you have a SINGLE dead hang pullup, workout B changes to 10 x 1 (or singles for max sets) WITHOUT BANDS. Get off the bands and knock out as many reps as you can without bands for as many sets as you can. This is key.

[spacediver]

Another handy thing I discovered is to microload the bands by adding a tiny dumbell between your ankles in combination with a band. It's not quite the same, as the band provides nonlinear assistance throughout the rep, whereas a dumbell provides linear resistance throughout the rep, but it's worth experimenting with, especially if the jump from one band to the next smallest band is too great (or if the jump from the lightest band to bodyweight is too great).

[Notrhwoods]

I ran into the same issue a couple months ago when I started chins. I have found that negative chins work best. Inverted rows were kind of awkward for me and assisted chin ups do not include the very important stabilization effects.

If I were you I would focus on a high number of sets. On power clean days you will have 10 breaks in between sets of the other exercises, superset chin ups between these sets. Rippetoe does not recommend super setting with SS but if you recognize improving chin ups as a goal and realize your other lifts may slightly suffer while you get your chins up to speed it will be OK. Start off doing 10x1 negatives, then 1x1 chins with 9x1 negatives, until you get to 10x1 chins, then 1x2 and 9 x 1 chins, then 2x2 and 8x1 chins, etc…. Each workout try increasing your chin up total. You probably can go through this progression much faster than proscribed above.

It is a kind of like greasing the groove within a single workout. Over two months I went from struggling with 1-2 chin ups and now I am up to about 25 chins over 10 sets and can bust out 5 chins in one set as a personal best.

[Dastardly]

People make this so much more complicated than necessary.

If you have one chin, just do it as often as possible and focus on excellent technique. Draw your elbows down/back as far as you can and lift your chest to the bar. Do not try to curl yourself up, the biceps are a weak small muscle but the lats and rhomboids are large and powerful. Many people (even those who train) have lost the ability to use them. Time to wake them up, work them across a full range of motion and get them strong.

This is all you need to do, nothing else. But the following can help develop the right movement patterns and strength to get you going.

To assist your chins do anything that also emphasises the same things that contribute to good technique on real chins/pull ups. I like to recommend chest supported rows as i can be almost totally sure you wont do the movement wrong, even without coaching. Push your chest into board, and pull your shoulders and elbows back, and let your shoulders relax and pull forwards after each rep to stretch your lats and rhomboids. Finish each rep with a pause and strong contraction when you are fully pulled back.

The machines look something like this;



Dan john recommends something he calls "batwings" for the same purpose, but I think the ROM is inferior. But good if you dont have a chest supported row machine or high bench.


If you feel you can perform them with excellent technique, single arm dumb bell rows done with a flat back and a strong concentration on pulling the DB high on each rep, leading with the elbow and NOT letting your shoulder drop - will also work extremely well to reactivate these important pulling muscles and strengthen them.

Doing this combined with real chins, as many singles as you can - will make you progress very fast.

[FatButWeak]

As a fellow 225 pound lanky who can now do a solid set of eight, I second Tbone's statement that " Since you have a single chin up, you would NOT use bands for 10 x 1. You would do as many sets of 1 as possible."

[Winona77]

Alright, thanks guys and gals. I started powercleaning today, and had a disappointing squat distract me (missed my first reps) so I forgot to add the chin-ups. I don't have a band, but I may just do a few sets of one jump chin-up. I have found that my 1 chin-up, if done from a full range of motion, sends me in to failure afterwards and I am pretty much done with chin-ups for the day. The jump makes it 75% effort or so I'd guess.

The machines look something like this;

my gym has one of those machines. I see how the range of motion would be beneficial but I have been reluctant to use the "bodybuilding machines". I suppose I need to get over that, the range of motion would be a good assistance movement.

[Dastardly]

Its the movement pattern and reliance on the big pulling muscles that make chest supported rows ideal. Some people think that curls/biceps will help you with chin & pull ups. Guess what? They wont. Its the pulling motion of the lats & rhomboids combined, once you got it you will be able to perform plenty of chins even after exhausting your biceps. It will also improve your posture, your bodyshape and build a stable platform for pressing exercises.

I have sometimes done ladders of curls, totally exhausting the biceps, but gone and done close to PR on pull ups or chins.

[gzt]

The Batwings are really more to hit the rhomboids as a shoulder-prehab type thing. But, yeah, Dastardly has good ideas here.

Also, the great thing about pullups is that you can do absurdly high frequency/high volume on them. Get a pullup bar, grease the groove.