SS without Deadlifts?

[BruceBerry]

In the past 6 months I've followed SS, but I was trying to lose a lot of weight and the calorie restriction didn't allow me to progress much. Now I'm done losing weight and I have a chance to bulk and give "the rippetoe's" a fair shake.

(current stats: squat 140 - bench 130 - ohp 95 - dl ???, 5'6" 138lbs)

but... deadlifts. fucking deadlifts man. I love them, but I keep injuring myself with them. And with baby weights as well. Once at 195, then at 165, last time this wednesday at 175. Relatively speaking, they are not a huge effort for me: I've failed squats, bench and presses before because of too heavy weight, but I've only failed a deadlift set because of pain flaring up. How do people "fail" deadlifts? My back hurts just by looking at people failing deadlifts.

It seems that my form breaks down too much with nontrivial weights: i don't round my back, but i tend to use one side more that the other (muscle imbalance from an old ACL surgery) and use more back than hamstrings to bring the bar past my knees. Properly "humping" the bar after the knees by squeezing the glutes is still a work in progress, but I feel the lesson I took a few weeks ago from a PL coach helped in this regard.

At some point I feel pain on the right side of my lower back (I have a mild stenosis at L4-L5 and a bulging disk but obviously it's hard to say whether it's related). The pain is actually more in my glute than my lower back, but the whole area is affected. The acute phase only lasts a few days (this time I didn't even have one, ice and ibuprofen were enough), but then I get more mild pain during the day and pain during squatting for the following few weeks. Chiros, PTs and decompression don't seem to make much of a difference.

What should I do now?
1) Bulk and don't worry, everything will be different: I should start from a low weight where form is perfect, say 135. This time, thanks to copious amount of macronutrients, my muscles will grow and I will gradually have perfect form with 145, then 155, and so on. Can muscles really grow if I'm not pushing myself too hard? When I do 135 I feel like curling 10lb dumbbells.
2) Wait to bulk until my back improves (how? it's been 9 months). I don't want to be a skinny bodybuilder, but if i have to get fatter, at least it should be worth it in terms of strength.
3) Bulk, but don't push yourself hard on DLs, accept that my back is fucked up and my deadlift will always always be behind, trying to partially replace the missing effort/volume with GHR, chinups, back extensions or even more reps or sets for DL.

Any help is appreciated. I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up (PL,BB,Oly), but first I have to get past the weakling larva stage if i want to become a strong (hairy) butterfly

[boot29342342]

Those don't sound like baby weights considering the rest of your stats. Can you lift 135 without hurting yourself? How about posting a form video of your DL?

[Calvo]

Post vids to the coaches' forum.

[Milo's Ghost]

How old are you? Male or female?

[BruceBerry]

@Milo: Male, 28. Actually I screwed up converting the height. I'm 5'7".
@Calvo: I made a video but it was too long ago, I'll try to make a new one on monday.
@tobo: 135 is easy (probably too easy). the problem is that it gets dangeours before it gets hard. it was a while ago, but i'm pretty sure i pulled 205 or 215 for reps.

[Milo's Ghost]

Ok.

You are very, very small. I'm not sure why you thought you needed to diet down to 138, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

You need to decide what you want. If you want to get strong(er), then doing SS is the best way to do it. But you'll absolutely have to gain a pretty significant amount of weight if you want to get anywhere. You don't have to get fat, but you'll need to eat - a lot - to grow and recover.

If deadlifting really fucks your back, then obviously don't do them. But if a 28-year-old man who is eating properly really can't do deadlifts, then there's something really wrong with your back and you should see a doctor about it.

A lot of back issues are helped, if not cured, by squatting and deadlifting. Either way, doing nothing is not going to make it better. If it's truly pathological, it needs to be fixed. If it's just tweaked/painful ... Welcome to life. Most people's backs bother them. We're not perfectly designed creatures.

So here is what I would do if I were you, given that I assume you *do* want to be strong (or you wouldn't be posting here).

1. Do SS exactly as written, including deadlifts. This means buying and reading the book if you haven't already.
2. Post form videos here on the forum.
3. EAT. Jordan in the nutrition forum here is an invaluable resource; read the articles linked in te stickies and then run your nutrition plan by him.
4. Distinguish between pain/discomfort and injury. Push through the former; it'll get better as you get stronger. If it's the latter - which usually means something like numbness in a leg, difficulty walking, etc. - then go to a doctor. Nobody can see your vertebrae from here.
5. If deadlifts aggravate your back disproportionately, and it interferes with your quality of life, and there's nothing a doc can fix, then there are ways around this while still doing the lift. Less weight, conservative programming, alternate lifts, etc. But I wouldn't go there unless you absolutely have to. You may be surprised what really doing SS + nailing your form + eating adequately and gaining weight may do. I'd at least try that route before giving up on what is a very important lift, ESPECIALLY for building back strength and functionality.

Good luck.

[BruceBerry]

Thanks.

Getting stronger was always the plan, but i thought it was ridiculous to start my bulk at 24% bodyfat. I was physically inactive and I looked like shit, now at least I just look like I don't lift, even if I do. I'm probably around 12-13% bodyfat, it's not like I nearly starved myself. I can post a picture if you like, I'm just not sure what is the forum policy for scantly dressed bathroom mirror selfies

I did go to a doctor, who prescribed me the PT. The PT mostly worked first on myofascial release, then on simple "core" exercises (planks, bw squats, etc). Since there was not much of an improvement, the doctor sent me to an ortho, who did an MRI. Again, I can post a picture if you like. The MRI showed a bulging disc at L4-L5, with mild foraminal narrowing. However it's pretty common for bulging discs to be asymptomatic, so i'm not 100% sure that is the cause of my problems. During this, I also bought an inversion table (~10 min/day), and went regularly to my university clinic where we have some (supervised) chiropractor students regularly visiting.

I'll give the bulk a chance, and try to get a form check next week, thanks. I'm also getting a cortisone injection very soon -- I have the anesthesiologist appointment on tuesday. I'll try to read the book again as well. I'm pretty good at nutrition and I still have my chubster appetite, I just have to mentally set a higher calorie target and I should be fine.

[Simon Rest]

I used to have issues bulging a disc (L5/S1) on and off before I did SS. I then did it deadlifting (90kgs), and a PT told me I should never DL more than 50kgs. I of course ignored him and instead worked on my form. Milo is right, as you get stronger you adapt and these minor injuries happen less. I will say though if you have a bulged disc give it 2 weeks rest before working your way back up. And post form checks if you can't get a local coach to help you.

[boot29342342]

Thanks.

Getting stronger was always the plan, but i thought it was ridiculous to start my bulk at 24% bodyfat. I was physically inactive and I looked like shit, now at least I just look like I don't lift, even if I do. I'm probably around 12-13% bodyfat, it's not like I nearly starved myself. I can post a picture if you like, I'm just not sure what is the forum policy for scantly dressed bathroom mirror selfies

I did go to a doctor, who prescribed me the PT. The PT mostly worked first on myofascial release, then on simple "core" exercises (planks, bw squats, etc). Since there was not much of an improvement, the doctor sent me to an ortho, who did an MRI. Again, I can post a picture if you like. The MRI showed a bulging disc at L4-L5, with mild foraminal narrowing. However it's pretty common for bulging discs to be asymptomatic, so i'm not 100% sure that is the cause of my problems. During this, I also bought an inversion table (~10 min/day), and went regularly to my university clinic where we have some (supervised) chiropractor students regularly visiting.

I'll give the bulk a chance, and try to get a form check next week, thanks. I'm also getting a cortisone injection very soon -- I have the anesthesiologist appointment on tuesday. I'll try to read the book again as well. I'm pretty good at nutrition and I still have my chubster appetite, I just have to mentally set a higher calorie target and I should be fine.

Cortisone injections are something I hope to never have... they really hose your tissues, you know, in the process of reducing the inflammation. You can only have so many before your tendons wither away.

[BruceBerry]

Cortisone injections are something I hope to never have... they really hose your tissues, you know, in the process of reducing the inflammation. You can only have so many before your tendons wither away.

I've heard they can be really painful for some people, but I haven't heard of this side effect before. I was planning to have only one and see if it helps me to bulk in peace. Since my pain is not so bad (except or DLs), I don't plan on getting them regularly. I'd rather give up DLs than getting these shots regularly. They can also help diagnosing my problem: if my pain doesn't disappear completely for at least a few weeks, then the bulging disc is not what's causing the pain.

@RugbySmartarse: my PT does sumo deadlifts, so he wasn't so scared of lifting in general (he was impressed with the depth of my 95lb low-bar squat i showed him though ). The ortho on the other hand was *shocked* I could deadlift 1 plate, and suggested me I don't even mention lifting to the anesthesiologist