Power Clean instead of Deadlift

[Moriel218]

Hi,

I've only seen some sort of opposite questions in regards to PC, but in my case I became infatuated with this lift (I am also planning ahead to transition to olympic weightlifting program in near future). I simultaneously became fed up with the deadlift. Last time I was doing Sumo, something "snapped" around the right upper ab and lower rib. On conventional, I once thought I had a hernia, and it was putting a pressure on that spot. At the beginning it was reverse, I looked forward to DLs and thought I will never want to do PC. Since I'm in Advanced Novice stage, which is not exactly SS, but very similar (PowerliftingToWin) and it has DL twice a week with two sets, I thought if it would be ok to just start Power Cleaning in its place. PC would then be a Novice lift for me, so I would treat it accordingly. Perhaps if 2x per week doesn't sound best, one day would be PC, another would be Pendlay Rows?

I would still try DL once a month or so.

Btw, my DL never had a chance to be fully expressed because it comes after heavy squats and benches, the only occassion when it did was when I was messing with 5/3/1. Now my squat (low bar but below parallel) is racing forward while DL hardly progresses. I just feel its always kind of forced at the end of workout, and I would really rather Power Clean, but I would like to see some opinion on best integration in my current LP program:

1) twice per week
2) PC Monday, Pendlay Rows Friday
3) PC Monday, Clean and Jerk Friday (to slowly get used to that lift, while practicing technique on Snatch on light Wednesday)

Whatever I pick from those, is any one option counter-productive?

( So its not that I ever avoided deadlifting, but when I become intermediate and perhaps go on TM, I would simply like to have everything to match my personal preferences. This would be more like TM + Starr's Strongest Shall Survive which exactly features PC over DL )

[Chebass88]

I wouldn't say any of the proposed options are counter-productive per se - your progress might not be as good as it could be. If you want to just do power cleans instead of deadlifts - why not? Spend a month or two doing them, and carefully analyze the results.

You **may** find that the pulling volume isn't high enough. The Novice program uses five triples for power cleans (IIRC), but that is also including the deadlift. You may find it beneficial to bump up the power clean volume slightly. You would have to test it out.

Yet another option is to clean everything you press. If you are about to do a set of five presses - clean it to your shoulders for the first rep and then do the full set of presses, and lower it to the ground. The start of the press isn't exactly the same as the end of the clean (or start of the jerk, for that matter), but you are probably pressing quite a bit less than you can power clean (or clean).

[manveer]

How much are you deadlifting now? Seems it would be beneficial to have a strength base if you're planning to go into oly lifting. Don't know what the threshold is, but someone else here will.

[Moriel218]

I wouldn't say any of the proposed options are counter-productive per se - your progress might not be as good as it could be. If you want to just do power cleans instead of deadlifts - why not? Spend a month or two doing them, and carefully analyze the results.

You **may** find that the pulling volume isn't high enough. The Novice program uses five triples for power cleans (IIRC), but that is also including the deadlift. You may find it beneficial to bump up the power clean volume slightly. You would have to test it out.

Yet another option is to clean everything you press. If you are about to do a set of five presses - clean it to your shoulders for the first rep and then do the full set of presses, and lower it to the ground. The start of the press isn't exactly the same as the end of the clean (or start of the jerk, for that matter), but you are probably pressing quite a bit less than you can power clean (or clean).

I will consider you points. But I am wondering - why do you think the progress might not be optimal then? At this point, I care more about increasing Power Cleans and later C&J than I care about DL. Other than halting my other goals(which I can't see how), what else can be affected by not training maximal pulling strength, except DL itself? I mean, I don't plan to compete in weightlifting, nor do I think I'll ever reach numbers close to deadlift on cleans, I would be very much happy with weight just around 225lbs one day. It won't happen overnight that I have to clean 150kg and I'm limited by DL at that point, as competitive athletes should care. In this case I like the idea of PC as "third big lift", like in Strongest Shall Survive by Starr.

My next program would be structured as I will write at the bottom of post.

How much are you deadlifting now? Seems it would be beneficial to have a strength base if you're planning to go into oly lifting. Don't know what the threshold is, but someone else here will.

I'm not done with LP yet, and I decided to still take on Texas Method when I am.

Here are few points though:

1) First and foremost I care about strength development.
2) Second to that, I am interested in weightlifting, but just being technically efficient and having average numbers on two lifts relative to my BW is good enough for me. Maybe I'll become more greedy when its time to even worry about it. I think Justin Lascek' program for transitioning from strength training into OLY lifting will do. He only features RDL there, no conventional DL.
3) I don't care about hyperthropy in the sense of low BF/bodybuilding bullshit (even though I'm still ectomorph after gaining 20kg), but I would like to increase my leg size, and besides focusing on LBBS, I would like all the benefits of Front Squatting, reasons being because I like the exercise, because I need to work on my posture(kyphosis and lordosis), for translation to clean, and that's why I would try to add one more day between intensity and light day, to front squat in higher rep range, like in following example(I also have stupidly lagging inner thighs and vastus medialis, my knees tend to rotate inwards when I'm standing). This would be a TM based program after I finish my LP:


Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Power clean 8x3 (upon plateaus changed to 5x3, 3x3, 1x3, 3x1, or similar)

Tuesday
Front Squat (some high rep range, lighter weight, 3x8 or so)
Barbell Hack Squat
Romanian DL (just to keep additional posterior chain and hamstring work along with LBBS, since DL is out, but thinking if Friday would be better?)

Wednesday
Front squat (5x3)
OHP (3x5)
Snatch 10x1 (light technique work)

Friday
Squat (1x5)
Bench (1x5)
Deciding on C&J or Pendlay Rows or Split Jerk
Chins AMRAP


Does this look good or terrible? Is Tuesday a bad idea?

The reason why I think I could add more to legs specifically that way is because I have anterior pelvic tilt(working on it), I feel LBBS on my lower back above all, and yes, on a positive note it works wonders for my posterior chain, but I feel my thighs are lagging, and I would prefer adding ATG movements(one more option is Front Squat as written, and HBBS on Light Day). Well, some input would be useful...

[chrisd]

This would be a TM based program after I finish my LP:


Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Power clean 8x3 (upon plateaus changed to 5x3, 3x3, 1x3, 3x1, or similar)

Tuesday
Front Squat (some high rep range, lighter weight, 3x8 or so)
Barbell Hack Squat
Romanian DL (just to keep additional posterior chain and hamstring work along with LBBS, since DL is out, but thinking if Friday would be better?)

Wednesday
Front squat (5x3)
OHP (3x5)
Snatch 10x1 (light technique work)

Friday
Squat (1x5)
Bench (1x5)
Deciding on C&J or Pendlay Rows or Split Jerk
Chins AMRAP


Does this look good or terrible? Is Tuesday a bad idea?

Whether it's good or terrible will depend on where you are at when you start the program.

I see that you have two successive days of front squats, which, on the surface looks a bit hard. Friday might be better for the RDL, or whatever variation you want to employ, two days to recover. There's the option of snatch grip DL, clean grip DL or high pulls with these grips.

I'd put the snatch practice before the front squat and press, so that I was still fresh for the movement. Likewise, my preference would be to do the cleans before the squats on Monday.

You've got two sessions of bench and one of press. The jerks and snatch will of course work the shoulders too, so it might work fine for you.

You say you can't overhead squat, it's kind of considered an essential for the snatch. You could of course only split snatch, if so it might be an idea to consider overhead lunges. It's probably worth trying to develop the overhead squat, start with a broomstick, the worst that happens is that you fall over and it's not far to fall.

This might be the perfect program for you. If it isn't, you have a plan to start with and you can modify it as necessary.

[Moriel218]

Whether it's good or terrible will depend on where you are at when you start the program.

I see that you have two successive days of front squats, which, on the surface looks a bit hard. Friday might be better for the RDL, or whatever variation you want to employ, two days to recover.

Yeah, I'm afraid Monday volume back squats, next day front squats and next day front squats again... is potentially missing the point of TM? But how can I better push the volume for them? Because I'm in dilemma between low reps-high reps. I would prefer best from both worlds. In other words, I want to drive them up, or at least use for hyperthropy, not just active recovery. How far am I allowed to push myself on front squats during light day once they start to increase in linear manner?

I'd put the snatch practice before the front squat and press, so that I was still fresh for the movement. Likewise, my preference would be to do the cleans before the squats on Monday.

Eh, exactly. That, and I forgot to mention that I'm sceptical to have PC last on Monday... Would be better as a 1st lift, I agree.

You've got two sessions of bench and one of press. The jerks and snatch will of course work the shoulders too, so it might work fine for you.

Thats what I'd keep, as powerlifting style without rotating, for bench. It proved to work best for me, because OHP was blocking my bench, and not vice versa. For the whole 5 months that I wasn't doing OHP, it didn't decrease, and bench got up.

You say you can't overhead squat, it's kind of considered an essential for the snatch. You could of course only split snatch, if so it might be an idea to consider overhead lunges. It's probably worth trying to develop the overhead squat, start with a broomstick, the worst that happens is that you fall over and it's not far to fall.

Yes, really gives me trouble. Falling over with a 45lbs bar is also no good, especially in commercial shitty gym with no better option in my area(so that sucks for oly lifting, but I will tend to train without needing to drop weights for as long as possible - no maxing out overhead). But as I'm working with broomstick here and there, its getting better, slowly getting rid of tightness when holding anything resembling bar behind the neck. Fortunately I have only 10 kilograms bar at home, so that comes handy. Until then I'll do power snatch, the way Rip teaches in video.

[chrisd]

Yes, really gives me trouble. Falling over with a 45lbs bar is also no good, especially in commercial shitty gym with no better option in my area(so that sucks for oly lifting, but I will tend to train without needing to drop weights for as long as possible - no maxing out overhead). But as I'm working with broomstick here and there, its getting better, slowly getting rid of tightness when holding anything resembling bar behind the neck. Fortunately I have only 10 kilograms bar at home, so that comes handy. Until then I'll do power snatch, the way Rip teaches in video.

Haha! That's what I did. First time I tried overhead squat in the power rack. Put the J hooks high, lifted the bar out overhead, squatted, got to the bottom and sat down. the bar hit the rack on the way down then bounced off the safeties. I was flat on the floor by then, so no damage. After that it was a wooden pole, then a cheap 25mm barbell (5kg) and weight added slowly until I could squat the 20kg bar. Then I stopped doing it for some time, so I have to build back up again.

I had to get used to having my wrists in extension, that makes a big difference in the balance.

[Chebass88]

There is a Texas method variant for Olympic lifting in PPST3. I've done it - it is a decent program.