Chins; reps vs adding weight

[toonttm]

I seen a thread on this once but didn't take much notice at the time, and its always fun to start a new thread!

On deadlift day I do worksets (3 x 5), then volume (5 x 10). After that I do chinups as an accessory lift.
I do 10 sets with 60 seconds break in between. My previous record was around 9/10 reps per set, I fatigue quite badly at 9/10 reps so never really done anymore.

After a hiatus I'm back at it and currently I am at 5 reps for each set and i am thinking, should I keep plugging away at the reps or keep it at 5-reps and add weight?
Even cut it back to 5 weighted sets?

I think I remember someone once saying that to get these types of exercises 'going' you need to treat then like a main lift, but then again, it is (for me) an accessory...

thoughts?

[Alexander Dargatz]

On deadlift day I do worksets (3 x 5), then volume (5 x 10).

Why the hell?
Working weights?
What happened to 1x5 per week?

I do 10 sets with 60 seconds break in between. My previous record was around 9/10 reps per set, I fatigue quite badly at 9/10 reps so never really done anymore.

After a hiatus I'm back at it and currently I am at 5 reps for each set and i am thinking, should I keep plugging away at the reps or keep it at 5-reps and add weight?
Even cut it back to 5 weighted sets?

I think I remember someone once saying that to get these types of exercises 'going' you need to treat then like a main lift, but then again, it is (for me) an accessory...

thoughts?

What is the goal here?

Why 10x10?
I usually do 3-4 sets @rpe9.5-10. I try to increase the weight, I want to get stronger. 60sec rest for 10x10 sure is impressive, but not strong. I couldn't do that, but i can do +100lbs x 5reps or 135lbs x1.
If getting back to 10x10 in 10minutes is the goal, the strategy for achieving that would be vastly different than for increasing your strength over 3 sets.

[8odin8]

Why the hell?
Working weights?
What happened to 1x5 per week?



What is the goal here?

Why 10x10?
I usually do 3-4 sets @rpe9.5-10. I try to increase the weight, I want to get stronger. 60sec rest for 10x10 sure is impressive, but not strong. I couldn't do that, but i can do +100lbs x 5reps or 135lbs x1.
If getting back to 10x10 in 10minutes is the goal, the strategy for achieving that would be vastly different than for increasing your strength over 3 sets.

He's talking about chins, not deads. He does them on his deadlift days.

[Alexander Dargatz]

He's talking about chins, not deads. He does them on his deadlift days.

I know.
So?

[Oliax]

Its hard to judge progress on chins/dips because your body weight is a ever changing variable.

What if you put 25 pounds plate on your dip belt but also gained 5 pounds and are now unable to do your 3x5 with that weight? can you really say that you got weaker? or vice versa

Also i dont think the risk of adding load is worth the reward on those exercise. In a chin, the load on a relaxed dead hang is supported by the shoulders ligaments. I dont think those can really be strengthened. So one of those day you'll get fatigued and relax too much too quickly at the bottom and get hurt. Sure fatigue and losing form can occur on any exercice, but i think the risk of injury is much higher on chins/dips when it does happens and its at the shoulder joint which just doesnt heal up very well. I think thats why a lot of people praise weighted chins/dips, it goes give good results, but somehow their story always end up with fucked up shoulders.

Personnaly, i think that if you can do 3 x 6-8 reps at an healthy bodyweight for your height, with very strict form and full range of motion, then you're strong enough on those exercice and need to focus on deadlift and press/bench instead.

[Murelli]

Also i dont think the risk of adding load is worth the reward on those exercise. In a chin, the load on a relaxed dead hang is supported by the shoulders ligaments. I dont think those can really be strengthened. So one of those day you'll get fatigued and relax too much too quickly at the bottom and get hurt. Sure fatigue and losing form can occur on any exercice, but i think the risk of injury is much higher on chins/dips when it does happens and its at the shoulder joint which just doesnt heal up very well. I think thats why a lot of people praise weighted chins/dips, it goes give good results, but somehow their story always end up with fucked up shoulders.

The load on a deadlift is supported by nothing but the arms and should ligaments until it gets to the scapulae, where it's supported by active trap contraction. Do you think a person that deadlifts 160kg would have a problem with a 100kg (bw)+5kg chin-up?

Let's also see the data on injury from weighted chins.

[Oliax]

The load on a deadlift is supported by nothing but the arms and should ligaments until it gets to the scapulae, where it's supported by active trap contraction. Do you think a person that deadlifts 160kg would have a problem with a 100kg (bw)+5kg chin-up?

Let's also see the data on injury from weighted chins.

I see your point and I'm no expert on the subject. I agree that there is no danger for the shoulders ligaments when you peform the deadlift and chins with good form. I think the difference is in the relaxed starting position (the bottom/dead hang), the point before you align everything and apply force. There is no load on the shoulders ligaments at the relaxed bottom position of the deadlift (when the weight is supported by the floor), but there is one for the chin-up, unless you unload at the bottom by resting on the floor instead of hanging from the bar.

[Alexander Dargatz]

What shoulder ligaments are you talking about?
And moreover, I think that nobody "relaxes" at the bottom position with a heavy weight attached to their body...

[Murelli]

What shoulder ligaments are you talking about?
And moreover, I think that nobody "relaxes" at the bottom position with a heavy weight attached to their body...

^^^ This. If you don't dive bomb the chins, I'd say that weighted are safer than BW, because less reps = less wear and tear.

[Oliax]

^^^ This. If you don't dive bomb the chins, I'd say that weighted are safer than BW, because less reps = less wear and tear.

Well thats what im saying, unless you're 100% certain that you won't dive bomb because of failure/fatigue then I wouldnt do them weighted. I guess the trick is to never go to failure, but when you follow a program with sets across and no auto regulation then failure is bond to happen. Personnaly, i program them at the end of the workout after press or deadlift (like most people do i assume). So energy level can be low and form can suffer. In that situation, if you do them weighted, I think its just a matter of time before you injure yourself badly on the last rep of the day, to me its a gamble that you're sure to lose eventually. As for the wear and tear on high rep sets, if you dont cause impingement then it should regen just fine if you dont program them every workout.