70's Big LP

[Bojangles]

I just bought this program and looks good. The site, however, looks like it isn't really in use anymore and I cannot seem to get some answers as to the programming. Without giving away too much of the details in support of Justin, here is the general program:

M:
Press
Squat
Wtd Chins
Arms (alternate light bi's and tri's work each day)

W:
Bench
Deadlift
Pendlay Rows
Arms

F:
Wtd Dips
Front Squat
Wtd Pull-ups
RDL
Arms

These are my two questions:

1. I know the program calls to do both chins and pull-ups, but chins aggravate my wrists. I have been fine doing weighted neutral grip pull-ups on the rings (I can do 3x5 with 45lbs). Could I just do those weighted for 3 x 5 both Monday and Friday or is the alternating of the chins and pull-ups absolutely necessary?

2. My shoulders have never agreed with dips. I know Justin says swapping in a close-grip bench is fine, but how would I program it? Would it just literally go in on the Friday in place of dips, (even though I am still benching Wednesday?) and if so, what set/rep/progression scheme would be good to not burn me out on it because I know he says pushing 3x5 on it isn't the point of the close grip bench, but instead the close grip bench or dips are made as another press to drive and build the press and bench. So 3 x 8 possibly?

[John Hanley]

Thatsa. Weird program.

4x a month frequency on pretty tricky movements for a novice? Eh. I'm decently athletic, & there's no way I could've done this.

[Bojangles]

Well it's not totally different than a lot of LP's, everything is 3x5 at first and the arm work at the end is supposed to not take away from any of the main lifts. The only main differences I see from some SS templates is that you alternate weighted chins and pull-ups instead of just chins, fridays are for dips or close grip bench as Justin points out that at a certain point, he believes that a second bench or press day (depending on the week of alternating) hasn't done much to drive the numbers up much in his experience so he likes dips to help build the muscles involved. Also front squats are on the second squat day for variety's sake but you can just do back squats twice. The RDL's aren't 100% mandatory either. The bread and butter of the program is chins and pull-ups weighted to drive the upper body lifts and switching the rep schemes on the bench and press once they stall to a couple awesome alterations Justin lays out in the book. He feels the increased upper body work will prevent the big legs, small upper body look that some complain about with certain LP's.

[Dalton Clark]

Well it's not totally different than a lot of LP's, everything is 3x5 at first and the arm work at the end is supposed to not take away from any of the main lifts. The only main differences I see from some SS templates is that you alternate weighted chins and pull-ups instead of just chins, fridays are for dips or close grip bench as Justin points out that at a certain point, he believes that a second bench or press day (depending on the week of alternating) hasn't done much to drive the numbers up much in his experience so he likes dips to help build the muscles involved. Also front squats are on the second squat day for variety's sake but you can just do back squats twice. The RDL's aren't 100% mandatory either. The bread and butter of the program is chins and pull-ups weighted to drive the upper body lifts and switching the rep schemes on the bench and press once they stall to a couple awesome alterations Justin lays out in the book. He feels the increased upper body work will prevent the big legs, small upper body look that some complain about with certain LP's.

'With certain LPs' - might as well just say Starting Strength here since everyone on this board has heard this criticism of Starting Strength at least once. But to answer your questions first.

1) Most people here don't like rings for reasons, but doing neutral grip is perfectly fine. The neutral grip still allows plenty of biceps involvement just not as much as a a fully supine grip. Nor do you need to alternate. Carry on, soldier

2) 3x8 wouldn't be bad. 2x10 wouldn't be bad. In general, assistance exercises like this are recommended in the 8-10 range. I like this substitution since it aligns closely with your goals.

Basically any compound barbell based LP is going to be a pretty solid program with some overly gilded exceptions. As you mentioned, I wouldn't bother with front squatting based on your training history. Just do back squats (preferably low bar). I also see a future issue with deadlifts and rows on the same day once the dl gets heavy. Might want to find a way to split those up. If they are even necessary to do.

With regards to the infamous T-rex/centaur body builds that have been purportedly created by Starting Strength (and programs that are basically rip offs of it, I'm looking at you 5x5s. . .), this can happen in the short term. With the deadlift and squat, and the legs being larger muscles to start with, they will grow faster. But this isn't the concern of Starting Strength. Your ratios, body fat percentage (as long as it is reasonable), and aesthetics are absolutely not the purview of the SSLP. If you sacrifice strength in the squat and deadlift for maintaining some V-taper, or your chest to hips to waist ratio, your philosophy is not aligned with the programs purpose. That is bodybuildling. Bodybuilding.com has a great selection of meatheads who think they know what they are doing to ask about their opinions. Sure Big LP has more upper body work to attempt to counteract this, but it pays a price for that. It does not induce the systemic adaptations that result when a novice spends a month squatting and deadlifting three times a week. Since the Starting Strength approach hinges on moving as much weight as possible with the most muscle mass as possible, it is obviously going to result in very large legs. It is strict bodybuildling, ego-stroking bullshit to not want large, muscular legs. They are as impressive as any other body part.

So in short, while this program will work, it is essentially a LP bodybuildling oriented version of the mentality preached here.

[Bojangles]

'With certain LPs' - might as well just say Starting Strength here since everyone on this board has heard this criticism of Starting Strength at least once. But to answer your questions first.

1) Most people here don't like rings for reasons, but doing neutral grip is perfectly fine. The neutral grip still allows plenty of biceps involvement just not as much as a a fully supine grip. Nor do you need to alternate. Carry on, soldier

2) 3x8 wouldn't be bad. 2x10 wouldn't be bad. In general, assistance exercises like this are recommended in the 8-10 range. I like this substitution since it aligns closely with your goals.

Basically any compound barbell based LP is going to be a pretty solid program with some overly gilded exceptions. As you mentioned, I wouldn't bother with front squatting based on your training history. Just do back squats (preferably low bar). I also see a future issue with deadlifts and rows on the same day once the dl gets heavy. Might want to find a way to split those up. If they are even necessary to do.

With regards to the infamous T-rex/centaur body builds that have been purportedly created by Starting Strength (and programs that are basically rip offs of it, I'm looking at you 5x5s. . .), this can happen in the short term. With the deadlift and squat, and the legs being larger muscles to start with, they will grow faster. But this isn't the concern of Starting Strength. Your ratios, body fat percentage (as long as it is reasonable), and aesthetics are absolutely not the purview of the SSLP. If you sacrifice strength in the squat and deadlift for maintaining some V-taper, or your chest to hips to waist ratio, your philosophy is not aligned with the programs purpose. That is bodybuildling. Bodybuilding.com has a great selection of meatheads who think they know what they are doing to ask about their opinions. Sure Big LP has more upper body work to attempt to counteract this, but it pays a price for that. It does not induce the systemic adaptations that result when a novice spends a month squatting and deadlifting three times a week. Since the Starting Strength approach hinges on moving as much weight as possible with the most muscle mass as possible, it is obviously going to result in very large legs. It is strict bodybuildling, ego-stroking bullshit to not want large, muscular legs. They are as impressive as any other body part.

So in short, while this program will work, it is essentially a LP bodybuildling oriented version of the mentality preached here.

Thanks Dalton. I really respect and appreciate this response and you clearly know what you're saying. In which case, this refined template would suffice for me?

M:
Bench: 3 x 5
Squat: 3 x 5
Wtd Ring Chins: 3 x 5 then 1 set BW AMRAP
Light Arm Work: 2-3 x 10

W:
Press: 3 x 5
Deadlift: 1 x 5
Pendlay Rows: 3 x 5
Light Arm Work: 2-3 x 10

F:
Close Grip Bench: 3 x 8
Squat: 3 x 5
Wtd Ring Chins: 3 x 5 then 1 set BW AMRAP
Light Arm Work: 2-3 x 10

[manveer]

OP, what's your training history? If you're new to the basic movements, you'd benefit more from practicing them and establishing solid technique rather than messing with other variations.

[Bojangles]

OP, what's your training history? If you're new to the basic movements, you'd benefit more from practicing them and establishing solid technique rather than messing with other variations.

Did SS a few years back and got up to 215lbs at 6'1.5" my 3 x 5 numbers got to 285 squat, 190 bench, 140 press, 365 deadlift. I stopped training for awhile and for the past year I have been doing just upper body strength and bodybuilding type work to get my upper body size up.

In that time I ate hard and got my body weight to 230lbs, close grip bench to 250 x 2, press to 180 x 1, DB Rows with the 105's for 5 x 5, and weighted ring chins for 3 x 5 with 45lbs. Haven't done any squats or deads since I ran SS. Goal is still to focus more on upper body while getting bench to 315 and press to 225. The reason I was drawn to 70's big is due to it still being an LP that I think I can gain from but with a bit more focus on upper body size and strength which aligns with my goals.

[Dalton Clark]

Thanks Dalton. I really respect and appreciate this response and you clearly know what you're saying. In which case, this refined template would suffice for me?

M:
Bench: 3 x 5
Squat: 3 x 5
Wtd Ring Chins: 3 x 5 then 1 set BW AMRAP
Light Arm Work: 2-3 x 10

W:
Press: 3 x 5
Deadlift: 1 x 5
Pendlay Rows: 3 x 5
Light Arm Work: 2-3 x 10

F:
Close Grip Bench: 3 x 8
Squat: 3 x 5
Wtd Ring Chins: 3 x 5 then 1 set BW AMRAP
Light Arm Work: 2-3 x 10

With your goals, I would say that this is a good regime. . . until we convert you to a centaur on SS. (kidding)

[marcf]

With your goals, I would say that this is a good regime. . . until we convert you to a centaur on SS. (kidding)

Surprisingly, my upper body got really big on SS and not my legs. Chest, shoulders, lats and traps got huge, but my legs hardly grew. I went from 222lbs to 240lbs during LP at 6''1". I was getting tempted to add leg presses and RDLs to the program but I resisted the urge. Barely.