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Thread: 2.0 vs Layback Press

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    Can I play too?

    Do you think a plumb line down from the most anterior aspect of Chase's armpit got behind the rear most part of his butt?
    Heh, there we go. The angle of the video makes it impossible to say for sure, but I think so. Does this make it excessive? Not by any inherently meaningful standard, because there really is none. Talking about this is like talking about politics, where if you're pissing a lot of people on both sides off, you're probably onto something. In the strength world, a 900 lb strongman deadlift done with straps, hitching, and a super whippy bendy bar might be a reasonable (not a perfect) analogy. Sensible people would say: that's an absolutely incredible feat of strength, while also acknowledging that's it's not the same as what we'd call a "deadlift" in competition - done without any straps or hitching and on a 29mm stiff bar. But then you get the people on one side who just say "straps, DL bar, hitching - that's stupid/cheating" and the people on the other who say "what the hell is wrong with you, that's 900 lbs, how much can YOU lift?" They're both wrong. It's an impressive feat of strength, but it's not the same lift as a conventional deadlift as performed in the non-recreational PL federations. An 800 lb squat done to 1 inch above parallel is impressive as hell and is still an incredible display of strength, but it's not the same as squatting 800 an inch below parallel.

    The intellectually consistent position is that something can be an incredible feat of strength without being the same thing as, or meeting the standard of, X. And it's not being unnecessarily pedantic, either, if we're going to use words like "deadlift" to have a commonly accepted meaning.

    Pressing 315 with a ton of layback is not as impressive as pressing 315 without a lot of layback, which in turn, is not as impressive as doing an absolutely strict military press with 315. But it's still impressive as all hell. Just like pulling 900 with straps and hitching on a whippy 27mm bar is impressive as hell, even though it's not the same thing as gripping a 29mm bar with your hands and pulling the same 900 without hitching.

    And as I've been trying to convey throughout this entire thread, what constitutes "excessive" layback is really in the eyes of the lifter and beholder. For competitive purposes, I like the armpit/ass standard, but that's only because I personally think the inclusion of the press in meets makes the most sense as primarily an upper body strength test/display, in contrast to the squat and DL, and having that standard keeps it so a reasonable extent without requiring absolutely strict presses, which if judged strictly, would probably red light almost every attempt and just as likely make participation in this sport very low. But "reasonable extent" is itself subjective, and that standard is simply one of convenience, not inherent meaning. Additionally, that's only my personal opinion about the press in competition, which isn't agreed upon by everyone. Finally, even given that primary purpose for competing in the press, trying to limit the layback at meets comes with a large set of logistical issues to solve, as noted earlier. While tweaking can be done again in the future, the removal of any attempt to limit and judge layback in press competition probably makes the most sense.
    Last edited by Michael Wolf; 07-16-2017 at 04:50 PM.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    Heh, there we go. The angle of the video makes it impossible to say for sure, but I think so. Does this make it excessive? Not by any inherently meaningful standard, because there really is none. Talking about this is like talking about politics, where if you're pissing a lot of people on both sides off, you're probably onto something. In the strength world, a 900 lb strongman deadlift done with straps, hitching, and a super whippy bendy bar might be a reasonable (not a perfect) analogy. Sensible people would say: that's an absolutely incredible feat of strength, while also acknowledging that's it's not the same as what we'd call a "deadlift" in competition - done without any straps or hitching and on a 29mm stiff bar. But then you get the people on one side who just say "straps, DL bar, hitching - that's stupid/cheating" and the people on the other who say "what the hell is wrong with you, that's 900 lbs, how much can YOU lift?" They're both wrong. It's an impressive feat of strength, but it's not the same lift as a conventional deadlift as performed in the non-recreational PL federations. An 800 lb squat done to 1 inch above parallel is impressive as hell and is still an incredible display of strength, but it's not the same as squatting 800 an inch below parallel.
    Well said Wolf, this is articulating what I was trying to say about Eric Bugenhagen's (Sp?) lifts to DR in another thread. Just because certain feats aren't to certain standards doesn't make them less impressive in terms of "feats of strength" My examples being Eric's 800+lb jefferson deadlift and some other odd lifts.

  3. #23

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    Stop being so god damn reasonable, Wolf.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    The layback press is probably too rare to have even reliable anecdotal data on, but I've never coached someone who could do it and did it regularly, who ever had any injury issues from it.
    For what it's worth, I've had a few back tweaks from it.

  5. #25
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    Alright, there's one.

    In case I wasn't clear before, I don't think tweaks would automatically negate it as valid. People get tweaks and worse from squats and DLs all the time. God knows I have. But it would assist the decision making process as far as either trying to specifically teach it, or try to stop someone from doing it, depending upon their demographics, goals, inclinations, etc.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by silachoo View Post
    Well said Wolf, this is articulating what I was trying to say about Eric Bugenhagen's (Sp?) lifts to DR in another thread. Just because certain feats aren't to certain standards doesn't make them less impressive in terms of "feats of strength" My examples being Eric's 800+lb jefferson deadlift and some other odd lifts.
    "feats of strength" =/= a movement pattern that is supposed a trained lift, done regularly, with an ever increases load over time.

    How different does a 1RM layback press look from say the same lifter's 3x5 work sets, or say a warmup set? Whye?

    inb4 deadlifts form breakdown blah blah blah.

    Chase is a big strong young man, kudos to him. No illwill, etc

    BUT I find it interesting though, just a little while ago he did 285x1 IIRC (April 7)
    It would take one of us mortals an ice age to add 30# to our 1RM press, especially at such a high level, so far into LP or intermediate.

    I wonder how much muscle was actually added to his "pressing system" over this period,
    OR if the press gains (285->315) were more a product of taking more advantage of layback, more 2.0 technique, etc.
    Probably a combo of both, but you see what I'm getting at. (prob not)

    (I guess if his bench went up a shit load during this period, that would explain it.)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBasic View Post
    I wonder how much muscle was actually added to his "pressing system" over this period,
    OR if the press gains (285->315) were more a product of taking more advantage of layback, more 2.0 technique, etc.
    Probably a combo of both, but you see what I'm getting at. (prob not)
    Somehow, MBasey-Base, I think you managed to read the thread up to this point and not see what I was getting at. Which is actually more or less agreeing with you, but pointing out that whether or not this matters is dependent upon multiple subjective factors and isn't objectively "wrong" just because some people don't like it.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBasic View Post
    "feats of strength" =/= a movement pattern that is supposed a trained lift, done regularly, with an ever increases load over time.

    How different does a 1RM layback press look from say the same lifter's 3x5 work sets, or say a warmup set? Whye?

    inb4 deadlifts form breakdown blah blah blah.

    Chase is a big strong young man, kudos to him. No illwill, etc

    BUT I find it interesting though, just a little while ago he did 285x1 IIRC (April 7)
    It would take one of us mortals an ice age to add 30# to our 1RM press, especially at such a high level, so far into LP or intermediate.

    I wonder how much muscle was actually added to his "pressing system" over this period,
    OR if the press gains (285->315) were more a product of taking more advantage of layback, more 2.0 technique, etc.
    Probably a combo of both, but you see what I'm getting at. (prob not)

    (I guess if his bench went up a shit load during this period, that would explain it.)
    I've watched some of Chase's work sets on social media. I believe it was a set of 5 with 260 from a while back. He seems to use the same technique: a little hip kick+bar bounce+layback. He's staying consistent with his form, and looks as if he has found his niche for pressing.

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