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Thread: 2.0 vs Layback Press

  1. #1
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    Default 2.0 vs Layback Press

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    Every since I ran my first LP a little over two years ago, I've tried every press variation that's out there. Initially, I tried the old 1.0 style. First rep strict, breath at the top, then get a stretch reflex out of the bottom. I then attempted to learn the 2.0 style. Just about had it down, had to take a little time off for an injury,switched gyms after that, and I just couldn't grasp it again. Mainly because it is difficult for me to get a front rack onto the delts again for some reason, and it didn't feel right with the floating rack. So then I stumbled onto a cue on the SS FB page of " bumping your hips" into all of the tension. For me, this resulted in a semi-strict press, with very little movement of the hips. So I finally told myself to keep everything tight as fuck, and just slam the hips forward. The result, a layback press. I must say that I have grown very fond of it though. My knees stay good and locked, and I've learned to employ a pretty dynamic stretch reflex from the Arms due to my sudden extension back from shoving the hips forward. I attempt to "pop" the bar from this position. I've watched Chase's recent press videos ( who is killing the press game right now) and it seems that he presses similar, only he drops the bar, and then lays back after the press whereas I lay back then press. I'm aware of the thread similar to this one over on the Training board, and I've been following it. Some of those guys seem to know a lot about pressing, but it grows out of my scope at times. Just wondering if some of the Starting Strength Staff could chime in, and give your opinions on the subject. As always, thanks for your time and knowledge.

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    Do you have a question? Are you asking permission to do a layback press instead of a standard Press 2.0? That's ok with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    Do you have a question? Are you asking permission to do a layback press instead of a standard Press 2.0? That's ok with me.
    I guess I didn't really have a question, was just looking for opinions from others.From what I understand, it's important to teach/learn the 2.0 press as a novice( if possible),but at some point(especially if trainee is interested in competing in strenghlifting) that it comes down to preference, considering that certain criteria is met: knees stay locked,layback not excessive,etc.

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    Ah, ok. Ya, that's more or less correct, though I would say that:
    a) You can probably press even more with a Press 2.0 + layback than with just layback alone
    b) If you're specifically trying to train the upper body musculature, excessive layback is less productive

    The problem with b) is that "excessive" is hard to define and if defined, even harder to enforce, as people who layback almost always do so instinctively and have trouble not doing it when the weight gets above a certain threshold.

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    It seems as if the press is the one core lift that is most versatile and at the same time subjective. Some folks only believe in bolt upright strict pressing, some people use the hip toss, others get a stretch reflex from the drop of the bar, some people layback, others layyyyyback, some learn to layback twice. I watched the old videos of Tommy Suggs at WFAC attempting to teach the Olympic press. That was very interesting. Everyone eventually seems to trick out and customize their individual press( myself included). This has been discussed to the point that it's ad nauseam I know, but I'm always trying to figure out more ways that I can become a better presser.Daverin gave me a good piece of advice recently which was " if you want to get better at the press, then press".
    So that's what I have been doing.

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    There's definitely a lot of room for different techniques or things to happen in the press if the only real rules are the knee and ankle joints can't act in a way that contributes to the lift, and some basic landmarks for the start and finish position. But ya, definitely press to become a better presser. But also bench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    ...people who layback almost always do so instinctively and have trouble not doing it when the weight gets above a certain threshold.
    Copout. People with knee cave on the squat, round back deadlift, and arm pull their cleans could all say the same thing.

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    They could, except that in all of those cases there are clear and compelling reasons of lifting efficiency why the lifter should work hard not to let those things happen.

    In the press, it is a lot fuzzier and much more dependent on what is important to the lifter or what the lifter is trying to accomplish. I have written above that a non-laid back or only slightly laid back press is a better way to work the upper body musculature, which is probably why most people press. But in the spirit of individual liberty, if someone wants to press for competitive purposes (purpii) or simply because they enjoy getting the most possible weight over their head without doing a push press, or to look cool for teh gramz, that's fine with me. The layback press is probably too rare to have even reliable anecdotal data on, but I've never coached someone who could do it and did it regularly, who ever had any injury issues from it. I haven't yet found a reason to limit it for that reason, whereas I've seen lots of people tweak their back or worse while pulling with a rounded lumbar. If I see lots of injuries occur from it, that could change my opinion, though for competitive purposes, ultimately it's still the lifter's choice.
    Last edited by Michael Wolf; 07-14-2017 at 10:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    ...but I've never coached someone who could do it and did it regularly, who ever had any injury issues from it... whereas I've seen lots of people tweak their back or worse while pulling with a rounded lumbar.
    The obvious conclusion is that of absolute load. The press has less absolute weight than a deadlift. That doesn't mean the mechanics of a limbo press are any safer than a rounded deadlift, so I find that argument less than compelling.

    I do agree with your distinction between someone training for competition vs focusing load on specific musculature. That said, most of the folks I see doing limbo presses 'round these parts have no chance of winning any competition in which the press is a competitive lift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    The obvious conclusion is that of absolute load. The press has less absolute weight than a deadlift. That doesn't mean the mechanics of a limbo press are any safer than a rounded deadlift, so I find that argument less than compelling.
    Absolute load may very well be enough of a distinguishing factor to be the difference between a higher and lower injury risk, so I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. For a given person, the most they'll ever press is significantly less than the most they'll deadlift, and if that means an overextended back in the press doesn't lead to many injuries whereas pulling in lumbar flexion does, that alone is significant, even if the mechanics of the press are as bad or even worse than the DL at equivalent loads. Plus the lumbar extension is inefficient (force absorption), so even if we take this assertion at face value, there's still a much stronger argument against pulling in lumbar flexion IMO.

    However, it's not clear to me that the mechanics are equivalently bad. Over-extension under mostly compression vs flexion under lots of moment. It's not an apples to apples comparison, and I think being under mostly compression mitigates a lot of the issues of over-extension in the press, vs over-extension in the squat or DL where there is lots of moment. So I'm more inclined to look at the actual occurrences of injury, which in my experience have so far been zero vs plenty in lumbar flexed DLs.

    I do agree with your distinction between someone training for competition vs focusing load on specific musculature. That said, most of the folks I see doing limbo presses 'round these parts have no chance of winning any competition in which the press is a competitive lift.
    Your latter comment is probably true, but if there's not actually a high occurrence of injury and they want to press the most they can press, I don't have a problem with it, even if I don't think it's as true a display or builder of upper body strength as a stricter press.

    FWIW, in theory I like the original strengthlifting criteria of layback being fine until a plumb line down from the most anterior aspect of the armpit gets behind the rear most part of the butt. But having judged at a strength meet and at over a dozen crossfit totals, this is very difficult to actually judge in real time while also looking at the knees, the feet, and the bar for up/downs. To really enforce it consistently you'd need a judge dedicated to just that, which adds another logistical requirement to something already challenging to pull off. The only real alternative I can see is requiring absolutely strict presses, which isn't a good option IMO.
    Last edited by Michael Wolf; 07-14-2017 at 03:52 PM.

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