Elbow Pain

[Frostmonkey]

Hello,
I'm looking for some help with my elbow(s) pain. (sometimes right, often both)

I am: 6' tall, 210lbs, 30yrs old, male, trying to the SSLP.

I have been trying to fix my squat grip over the past several months without any success.
Every time I would (begrudgingly) take some time off, deload and try a slightly different grip. Each time after breaking the ~300-315lb barrier the same thing would happen:
1. After the 2nd set above ~300lbs I would have mild pain on the inside of my elbows.
2. After the 3rd set I would have slightly more pain.
3. After the 2nd set of the next training session my hands would be shaking from the intense pain, and I would likely not be able to press/bench.
4. The pain (at a lower intensity) would continue throughout everyday life for several days.

Set 2
YouTube

Set 1 a better view of the bar position
YouTube

Set 3 wasn't possible due to elbow pain.

I have read every article/watched every video I could find on this subject, and I'm not sure where to go from here.
If I move my grip any narrower the weight sits on my hands.
If I move the grip much wider it feels like it wants to slide down my back.
I don't know how people do the thumbs around grip on the low-bar squat, it wants to break my wrist or fall off my back depending on the width.
Can someone who knows point me in the correct direction?


In one of Dr. Baraki's podcasts he suggested that the chin-up fix was just going to abuse the already inflamed tissue and to find the root cause.
I believe the root cause in this case has to do with bar position and grip width. But I have no idea.

Any input would be greatly appreciated,

Thank you,
Kenneth
Canada

[Tom Campitelli]

Kenneth from Canada,

Your grip looks fine from here, but I do notice that your elbows twitch a lot on the way up. Are you pushing down on the bar on the ascent as if you were trying to bend the bar around your back? If so, that could be the cause of the problem. Try and take your hands out of the equation. Given the extent of the problem, methinks a change is in order. If you are in acute pain outside of the gym and it is bothersome, take a loading dose of ibuprofen. 4 x 200 mg tablets three times a day for three or four days. Take it with food. That will knock down the inflammation and give you some relief. Next, switch to high bar squats for a time. There are people for whom low bar squats kick the hell out of their elbows, even without an obvious reason. Let's get this calmed down first and then rethink our options. I love low bar squats and they are what I teach to everyone. However, you can live a full and complete life squatting high bar, too.

As for your squat form, things are not too bad, but your knees need to be out more and you need to go deeper on a few reps.

[karthik]

Looks like Kenneth is involuntarily pressing down on the bar with his arms. I think I also see some slight loss in upper back extension, maybe as a result? Basically like right instead of left:



I have the exact same problem at very similar stats (height, body weight, bar weight) and my form is worse than this.
I find that focusing on maintaining thoracic extension through the whole lift helps minimize the pain. Thoracic flexion also tricks me into thinking I've reached depth when I'm 2" too high, so that might be happening to Kenneth too.

And once the pain's there, doing a bunch of light hammer curls (15 lb dumbbells x 20 x 3) usually makes it go away for me by the next day.

[Dlk93]

I don't know how people do the thumbs around grip on the low-bar squat, it wants to break my wrist or fall off my back depending on the width.

Yea when I made the switch to thumbs around (i.e. betrayed everything right and true in natural world and basically caused a tear in the very fabric of the cosmos), my wrists didn't appreciate it very much, but wrist wraps solved that pretty well. So, just another option to try if you haven't already; wraps are pretty cheap anyway.

Kenneth from Canada,

Your grip looks fine from here, but I do notice that your elbows twitch a lot on the way up. Are you pushing down on the bar on the ascent as if you were trying to bend the bar around your back? If so, that could be the cause of the problem.

I also had this twitching problem and it helped thinking about pinning my elbows to my side. It helped me secure them to my side as opposed to pressing down on the bar.

From the humble opinion of a lowly yeoman...

[Frostmonkey]

Kenneth from Canada,

However, you can live a full and complete life squatting high bar, too.

But what kind of life would that be :P
Thanks Tom.

Yea when I made the switch to thumbs around (i.e. betrayed everything right and true in natural world and basically caused a tear in the very fabric of the cosmos), my wrists didn't appreciate it very much, but wrist wraps solved that pretty well. So, just another option to try if you haven't already; wraps are pretty cheap anyway.

When switching to thumbs-around, does your grip have to widen?

I also had this twitching problem and it helped thinking about pinning my elbows to my side. It helped me secure them to my side as opposed to pressing down on the bar.

I have heard this "pin your elbows to your sides" thing before, but on what plane are we talking here? IE. keep your elbows inline with your back from a side view (my elbows would have to lower slightly), OR keep your elbows close to your sides from a rear view? OR is it just a cue to keep the elbows steady?


As I watch the video from behind again, it looks like I drop my elbows, (and maybe shoulders?) quite a bit when straining, which I didn't realize.
Does my elbow position look correct at the top?

Thanks guys,

[Tom Campitelli]

As I watch the video from behind again, it looks like I drop my elbows, (and maybe shoulders?) quite a bit when straining, which I didn't realize.

In fact, someone may have noted your elbow movement above, too.

Does my elbow position look correct at the top?

It looks pretty good from here. Your arms look fairly long. Would this be a fair assessment? If so, this may be part of your problem. This is even more likely to be problematic if your forearm segment is lengthy with respect to your upper arm.

[Dlk93]

When switching to thumbs-around, does your grip have to widen?

I have heard this "pin your elbows to your sides" thing before, but on what plane are we talking here? IE. keep your elbows inline with your back from a side view (my elbows would have to lower slightly), OR keep your elbows close to your sides from a rear view? OR is it just a cue to keep the elbows steady?

I actually don't recall whether my grip width changed as a result from thumbs around. I just know that it put my wrist in more extension than it would've been with thumbs over, so wrist wraps helped. If you have to widen your grip, though, to get the thumbs around, just know it's not worth it, if you have to get super loose in the upper back just to get your thumbs around.

Austin uses the "pin your elbows to your side" cue to get lifters to not crank the elbows up, as they tend to do by misinterpreting what's written in the book about this. I'd say that it means, to use your terms, to keep your elbows close to your sides from a rear view AND more in line with your torso from a side view (but not perpendicular to the ground obviously). I think that in doing those two things, for me at least, it accomplishes the third thing you mention, namely keeping the elbows steady.

Keep in mind Tom's comment though about your arm length.

Tom, what does a longer forearm entail exactly with respect to grip in the squat? A slightly wider grip width than normal?

[Frostmonkey]

It looks pretty good from here. Your arms look fairly long. Would this be a fair assessment? If so, this may be part of your problem.

Thanks guys,

[/QUOTE]

Correct.

This is even more likely to be problematic if your forearm segment is lenghty with respect to your upper arm.

Thanks guys,

[/QUOTE]


My power clean racked grip has to be quite wide, so I assume what you described is true.


As I understand it (now); the distance between the elbows and back should be the same at the top and bottom of the squat?

My current theory is that when my elbows dropped at the bottom, the bar slides down slightly and loads my arms and elbows.
I'll report back after my next training session (This evening).

[Tom Campitelli]

Tom, what does a longer forearm entail exactly with respect to grip in the squat? A slightly wider grip width than normal?

And probably a greater potential for discomfort.

[karthik]

My current theory is that when my elbows dropped at the bottom, the bar slides down slightly and loads my arms and elbows.
[/QUOTE]

From reps 4 and 5, it looks like the bar rolls up your back a little bit as the upper back relaxes. "Pin your elbows", consciously tightening the upper back, "elbows down", all work to varying degrees for me.