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Thread: I don't think I can safely barbell squat

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    Default I don't think I can safely barbell squat

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    Coaches,

    I'm 41 5'11" and weigh 255lbs. Before starting the LP I worked my weight down from 280 to 260 from the summer by doing conditioning drills (hiking, rowing, elliptical) and reducing carb intake. I started a new LP <8 weeks ago and I'm afraid I need to significantly change my training and thus I'm looking for advice. I don't believe I can safely continue the program.

    I come into this with an injury history that I knew could limit me. 15 years ago I was dx with thoracic herniations at T7-8 & T8-9. They were significant enough that I saw many doctors at the time. For the most part, the herniations became asymptomatic over the years but at a price, I abandoned barbell training 15 years ago.

    Here's the text of original MRI report in 2003 I am providing it for context:

    "Small extruded discs at T7-8 & T8-9, with superior migration of a small disc fragment at T7-8 and inferior migration of a small disc fragment at T8-9. No significant cord compression or central thoracic stenonsis."

    At T7-8, there is degenerative disc disease with disc space desiccation and central disc herniation with an extruded fragment migrating superiorily behind the T7 vertebral body. This small extruded fragment does slightly indent the ventral thoracic cord w/o causing significant cord compression. The foramina are widely patent"

    At T8-9, there is also a small disc herniation eccentric to the left with a small extruded fragment migrating inferiorly behind the left posterior T9 body. This disc fragment also minimally indents the ventral thoracic cord w/o significant central thoracic stenosis or cord compression. The neural foramina are patent."


    Since then I have had many more scans done and they have indicated over the years that the visible impacts of the herniation has moderated as the extruded fragments have shrunk.

    More than 48 hours after my last training session I have pain and an unstable feeling in the center mass of my back where the herniations exist. I was hoping that deadlifting would strengthen my back, however it feels as if loading a barbell on my back is not safe anymore. I have no issues with pressing or deadlifting.

    I started the LP with the bare minimum in weights below my true abilities hoping that a steady training progression would add supportive muscle and my back would not be a major issue until I got into heavier weights:

    S:55lbs
    B:45lbs
    OHP:45lbs
    D/L: 105lbs

    My most recent training has me at the following #s:

    S:150lbs
    B:85lbs
    OHP:80lbs
    D/L:235lbs (Let me say, I LOVE deadlifting. I had never deadlifted before in my life until I built a platform this fall)

    Since it doesn't feel safe to continue loading the spine I'm looking for ideas as to how I can work on an LP without doing the real program as it was designed. I can do DB squats and lunges but I only have DBs upto 45lbs. I could try belt squats off a loading pin but I'm not sure what kind of raised platform I could use. I know the trap bar deadlift is not a true deadlift because of the different muscle recruitment and I've read in some ways it is more squat than deadlift.

    Even with my modest numbers like this, I am much stronger than I was before. I have visible muscle mass in my arms, traps chest, and shoulders where I never had it before. I'm looking for alternatives knowing that excessive loading of the spine puts me at health risk.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    10,378

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    I think you should get a coach. It is likely that you can train with barbells and that doing so will be good for you and your back. It sounds like you have a fractured piece of the annulus fibroisis floating around in there, which worries me a little. At the end of the day, you need to pick things up off the ground. There is some weight that is appropriate for you to do that. A qualified coach will be of much more use to you than I am on the Internet. Where do you live?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Campitelli View Post
    I think you should get a coach. It is likely that you can train with barbells and that doing so will be good for you and your back. It sounds like you have a fractured piece of the annulus fibroisis floating around in there, which worries me a little. At the end of the day, you need to pick things up off the ground. There is some weight that is appropriate for you to do that. A qualified coach will be of much more use to you than I am on the Internet. Where do you live?
    I want to continue deadlifting and pressing with a barbell; neither causes me any issues and both are making m stronger. However, loading my back with the barbell is making my spine feel unstable hence wanting to look for an alternative. I know there is no “real” substitute for a low bar squat, I’ll take what I can get. I’m about an hour west of Philadelphia.

  4. #4
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    Jul 2016
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    I would love to work with a coach, but I'm not sure if someone would be willing to take that on. Clearly I have something going on in my back, and the original post was a reaction to the sensations I was feeling and not knowing where I should draw the line; perhaps I went too far off the deep end with my comments.

    I finished a workout this afternoon and I started very slowly, unsure if I was going to proceed on squats beyond my warm-up sets. I focused on my form and was able to complete my sets without drama:

    S: 155lbs
    BP: 87.5lbs
    D/L: 240lbs

    At 155lbs on the squat I'm not pushing much compared to most of the population, and I never will. My first priority is to do no harm. My secondary priorities are to continue to get stronger and to reap the long term health benefits.

    I dug up my last spinal MRI from 2016 for comparison:


    IMPRESSION:
    1. Unchanged mild multilevel thoracic spondylosis

    COMMENT:
    HISTORY: Degenerative disc disease, thoracic spine

    TECHNIQUE: T1 & T2 weighted axial and sagittal images of the thoracic spine were acquired without gadolinium administriation.

    Comparison: 10/2011

    FINDINGS:
    VERTEBAL BODIES & ALIGNMENT: There is an unchanged mildly exaggerated thoracic kyphosis with preservation of individual vertabral body height and alignment. There are no focal vertebral body lesions. There is normal overall signal throughout the vertebral body marrow.

    DISC SPACES (unremarkable other than the following):
    T5-T6: Unchanged mild disc desiccation and minimal bulge
    T6-T7: Unchanged mild disc desiccation and minimal bulge
    T7-T8: Unchanged moderate disc degeneration and small central disc protrusion
    T8-T9: Unchanged mild disc desiccation and minimal disc bulge

    CORD: There is normal signal and morphology of the spinal cord

    OTHER: Unremarkable



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Firstly, disc herniations are a part of human life. If you do some searching, the prevalence of disc herniation, or significant disc degeneration, in the population rapidly approaches 100% by the time people are about 40 years old. It is not quite 100% by then, but it is MOST people. I have herniated one or two of my lumbar discs over the years. The first time it happened was in my 20s. The point is: you are in good company. I cannot feel what you are feeling, but there is nothing in your MRI findings that is unusual for a 41 year old dude. I would also point out that in your most recent MRI, they make no note of any stray vertebral disc fragments floating around. My advice would stay the same: find a way to train. You can and should be conservative in your approach, but you are most likely not as fragile as you may think yourself right now. Appropriately loading the spine makes it stronger. Your back will probably hurt a bit regardless of whether you train or not. A well implemented barbell training program will likely make you more resilient to pain and injury rather than less. Alas, we don't have anyone near you in suburban Philly. I grew up in Malvern, btw. I have a soft spot in my heart for PA. A coach cannot feel what your back is doing, but they can spot form problems and notice how hard things are getting. You can still absolutely get hurt under the supervision of a coach, but the risk goes down when you have a good pair of eyes on you. How to go forward? I am not sure. In the meantime, feel free to post a video here.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    Buddy0329,

    Email me: draustin@barbellmedicine.com

    I don't live in Pennsylvania, but I would like to help you.

    Austin

  7. #7
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    Jul 2016
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    starting strength coach development program
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Campitelli View Post
    Alas, we don't have anyone near you in suburban Philly. I grew up in Malvern, btw. I have a soft spot in my heart for PA. A coach cannot feel what your back is doing, but they can spot form problems and notice how hard things are getting. You can still absolutely get hurt under the supervision of a coach, but the risk goes down when you have a good pair of eyes on you. How to go forward? I am not sure. In the meantime, feel free to post a video here.
    I'm really close to Malvern.

    It's frustrating, because I'm not sure when/if to draw the line. When I made the original post I was really down because even though I had a good squat session prior everything felt 'loose' in my back over the next couple of days and I was feeling something with any kind of movement, bending, twisting, moving, etc. It finally cleared up. I gave my self an extra day of rest and haven't felt anything in a couple of days. I squatted 160lbs last night without much drama.

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