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Thread: Does elbow flexion add anything to upper back work in horizontal pull?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    Default Does elbow flexion add anything to upper back work in horizontal pull?

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    I believe the upper back work in the deadlift may be considered "isometric" in that there is no elbow flexion; the whole back is worked very hard just by having the weight pulling down through the arms.

    I was wondering though: in the position of the beginning part of the deadlift, when the back is most horizontal to floor, is any additional work to the upper back gained through elbow flexion? In other words, does the barbell row somehow work the upper back differently then the deadlift via the action of pulling with the arms?

    I think the reason many people want to do rows is because they think a horizontal pull with elbow flexion adds something to upper back work that the deadlift does not. Does it? Obviously the deadlift uses more weight, but does the row work the upper back muscles in a somehow different way?

    Chinups obviously have elbow flexion, but since they are done at a more vertical angle, it seems they may leave out some of the upper back, rear delts, traps, etc. A horizontal row seems to hit these. But does the deadlift hit them in the same way?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Elbow flexion, on its own, has little to do with the upper back. For example, if the bar was light enough at the start of the deadlift, you could be leaned over and perform a type of reverse curl. That is elbow flexion without anything happening at the shoulder. Let me put the question back to you. What are the shoulders doing in the deadlift vs. the row? What are the scapulae doing? What muscles are affected? What are the actions of those muscles?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Campitelli View Post
    Elbow flexion, on its own, has little to do with the upper back. For example, if the bar was light enough at the start of the deadlift, you could be leaned over and perform a type of reverse curl. That is elbow flexion without anything happening at the shoulder. Let me put the question back to you. What are the shoulders doing in the deadlift vs. the row? What are the scapulae doing? What muscles are affected? What are the actions of those muscles?
    Thanks Tom. I see my mistake in asking about elbow flexion.

    I think everywhere I had originally asked about elbow flexion, I should have instead instead been asking about shoulder retraction. It seems the shoulder is what's really important here.

    The answers to your questions is exactly what I'd like to know. It's obvious that in the row the scapula are doing something different then in the deadlift. I'm just not sure if that difference effects the work the upper back muscles ultimately receive. In the row, the trainee is actively retracting the upper back muscles, but in the deadlift those same muscles are working hard isometrically just by hanging and making sure the arms aren't ripped off. Does this difference matter though? Maybe my question is really just one of isometric vs isotonic.

    Also to make a fair comparison, I'm only considering the bottom portion of the deadlift where the trainee is at the same angle as the row, because at the top of the deadlift it seems obvious that the different angle would lead to working muscles differently.

    Besides possibly having the ability to add volume more easily, I'm really just trying to understand if the barbell row does anything for the upper back that the deadlift and chin-up do not.

  4. #4
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    The row certainly does do things for the upper back that chins and deadlifts do not. There are three primary muscle actions: concentric, eccentric, and isometric. In the deadlift, the upper back is loaded isometrically, where the muscles do not change in length under a load. The muscles are arguably about as elongated as they get in deads, with the scapulae in protraction. In a row, the elbows flex, the shoulders extend, and the scapulae retract. This adds concentric and eccentric muscle actions to work. Chins also have concentric and eccentric work, but the direction of the pull differs between a chin and a row. The musculature is worked differently in both movements. You can more easily incrementally load a row, too. As a row gets heavy, the tendency to bring the body towards the bar instead of the bar to the body increases, making consistency more of a challenge. In a chin up, the bar and your collar bones are always in the same place, making for a more consistent ROM. Rows can build the muscles in the upper back in ways the other movements do not, particularly the muscles involved with scapular retraction and shoulder extension. However, you can live a full and complete life without doing rows, too. I generally don't row, nor do I have my trainees do them, although I don't have anything against them, either.

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