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Thread: Ideal strength to weight ratios

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    That is an important and very true statement. Thanks Michael for bringing that point to the general attention.
    You're welcome, sir.

    Also, this:


  2. #12
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    Lol, Breaking Bad is really one of my all time favorite TV series but actually I chose my profile name after my favorite German Physicist Werner Heisenberg. But since I am in the process of getting my account verified this confusion will soon disapear :-)

    I just had to support your post because I train for about 8 years along the lines of the starting strength principles (of course I messed up my LP as so many do), almost never miss a session, and even am working together with a SS coach online and still my numbers are very less than impressive compared to those of other serious lifters. Nevertheless, I celebrate every kg I put on the bar and every additional rep I can complete (keeping in mind that I have always been the slowest kid in school with a negligible vertical jump).

  3. #13
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    I have coached a lot of people like you over the years, Dr. Heisenberg. It's been one of my favorite and most rewarding aspects of my career. Some SSCs have the pleasure of working with a lot of older folks, and helping them retain, or gain back, a lot of physical independence. Probably due to being in Manhattan and working at a loud, crowded Crossfit gym, I don't have that pleasure. But I do get a lot of people who are weak, who can't move well, and want to do something about it. Taking a man who has never done anything more strenuous than type at a keyboard, from a 30lb press to a 95 lb press and a 55 lb squat to a 225 lb squat changes his life in many significant ways. Physical, mental, and emotional. As a coach, it's exceptionally rewarding and gratifying. I like taking the guy who already squats 315 and getting him to 405, sure. But if I had to choose one to do the rest of my life, it would be taking the guy who can barely handle the empty bar and getting him to 225.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    OK, then I'll talk about the other reason I don't like these ratios, regardless of bodyweight factors. Same reason Rip hates his own strength standards table. Same reason we all want to roll our eyes into the next zipcode when we hear of a doctor telling a 5'10" 225 lb lifter with 15% bodyfat that he's obese at his physical. These are useful things only when looking at large populations and trying to figure out trends at that population level, but attempting to apply that data to any one individual is useless.

    Since most people aren't serious weight lifters or have abnormally high levels of muscular bodyweight, the actuaries can estimate risk reasonably well for millions of people based on BMI. But that alone, applied to an individual with vastly different conditions, makes the doctor look foolish.

    Any given individual's genetic potential is subject to a massive amount of variance. Trying to extrapolate goals for a specific individual based on these kinds of population level norms or averages is, to me, a gigantic waste of time. Train as a Novice for as long as you can till you're not a Novice anymore. The train as an Intermediate for as long as you can till you're not an Intermediate anymore. Then as an Advanced lifter. After five years, someone your size with world class genetics may have a 350 squat, very good genetics 250-300, above average 185-225, average maybe 150-175, below average 135ish, and a really bad set of strength genetics might not be much above 100. Those are just random estimates, but the larger point is - there is absolutely no way to know.

    Even being given numbers like "you should expect to get to about X" is a waste of time to me. Even if that's the mean or the mode or the median that a coach has seen over thousands of trainees - there is still a vast swath that's done better or worse. If you can do better, aiming for the moon when you could be aiming at the stars will hold you back. If you have less potential, you'll just get frustrated by not hitting unachievable numbers that you think you're supposed to hit.

    Just train intelligently and let the numbers fall where they fall.

    Maybe others see things differently but I see no use at all in these types of ratios or charts as applied to any one specific individual.
    I found this thread very insightful and vote for this being made a sticky thread/post.
    Thank you Michael.

  5. #15
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    Glad you found it helpful.

  6. #16
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    Geoffrey West's book "Scale" (great book) has an interesting discussion of the strength-to-weight ratio. He explains what one would expect from basic physics, then gives a graph showing that the winners in an elite weightlifting competition (1950s Olympics? I can't remember) fit the curve almost exactly.

    He also points out that, if you were to look at "average" people instead of at elite weightlifters, you wouldn't get a good fit to the curve. The physics are about limits, and only elite weightlifters are near limits. In the general population, the variation in strength due to weight is obscured by all sorts of other things that vary between people.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    OK, then I'll talk about the other reason I don't like these ratios, regardless of bodyweight factors. Same reason Rip hates his own strength standards table. Same reason we all want to roll our eyes into the next zipcode when we hear of a doctor telling a 5'10" 225 lb lifter with 15% bodyfat that he's obese at his physical. These are useful things only when looking at large populations and trying to figure out trends at that population level, but attempting to apply that data to any one individual is useless.

    Since most people aren't serious weight lifters or have abnormally high levels of muscular bodyweight, the actuaries can estimate risk reasonably well for millions of people based on BMI. But that alone, applied to an individual with vastly different conditions, makes the doctor look foolish.

    Any given individual's genetic potential is subject to a massive amount of variance. Trying to extrapolate goals for a specific individual based on these kinds of population level norms or averages is, to me, a gigantic waste of time. Train as a Novice for as long as you can till you're not a Novice anymore. The train as an Intermediate for as long as you can till you're not an Intermediate anymore. Then as an Advanced lifter. After five years, someone your size with world class genetics may have a 350 squat, very good genetics 250-300, above average 185-225, average maybe 150-175, below average 135ish, and a really bad set of strength genetics might not be much above 100. Those are just random estimates, but the larger point is - there is absolutely no way to know.

    Even being given numbers like "you should expect to get to about X" is a waste of time to me. Even if that's the mean or the mode or the median that a coach has seen over thousands of trainees - there is still a vast swath that's done better or worse. If you can do better, aiming for the moon when you could be aiming at the stars will hold you back. If you have less potential, you'll just get frustrated by not hitting unachievable numbers that you think you're supposed to hit.

    Just train intelligently and let the numbers fall where they fall.

    Maybe others see things differently but I see no use at all in these types of ratios or charts as applied to any one specific individual.
    Thanks. As a novice 61 yr old, it can be rather discouraging to see some of the numbers quoted in the forums. They seem unobtainable. Especially as my ratios are all over the place. It's OK just to be the strongest I can be today.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_NC View Post
    Thanks. As a novice 61 yr old, it can be rather discouraging to see some of the numbers quoted in the forums. They seem unobtainable. Especially as my ratios are all over the place. It's OK just to be the strongest I can be today.
    I agree with you, Steven. The journey really should be about making ourselves as strong as possible. There are people out there with remarkable strength, but that shouldn’t take away from our achievements.

    I talked to a girlfriend last night who told me that her deadlift PR was 325 at 114 lbs bodyweight, mixed grip. And here I am struggling with 240 using straps @ 118-120 lbs. It will always be humbling as hell, but it’s still a great experience when we see our numbers going up. Being under the bar at 61, and pushing your limits, is something to be proud about.

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