Just came here to brag

[Bill Anders]

Great to see you back!

I saw your first post on the move over on the other forums and just shook my head. I have some dear friends who are still active military here in the US and they went through their hell of a move this year, too. Similar story where it was contracted to be a door-to-door move. Two weeks later, the truck arrives, but only after the driver opened boxes at the warehouse and pulled the heaviest items (not necessarily the useful ones), loaded the truck with their stuff plus other people, the wanted them to sign off on a full delivery, even though he broke many items to make them fit. It was another 3 months before the rest of the stuff showed up. Absolutely horrendous! We're thankful that most of ours, even back and forth over the oceans several times, went pretty smoothly, with only minor losses or damages along the way.

Re: programming on the presses — I made the decision to switch on my own after watching Nick's videos and reading his articles on the switch. It all made sense after that, especially since I've run NLP multiple times, getting stronger each time, and finally bumping up against that ceiling for presses. If you think about it, those lifts should be the first to move to intermediate programming, as the primary moving muscles are much smaller (relative to the legs and back) and have a long range of motion for the lifts (see the first video linked below).

Nick's Videos —

Why Your Press Gets Stuck First

Press and Bench Press Programming - Getting and Staying Unstuck — I ended up taking a lot of notes while watching this video, which informed (and continues to inform) my programming decisions for these lifts.

Nick's Articles —

Intermediate Programming for the Upper Body Lifts

Definitely read the forum discussions for each post, too.

BTW, while I didn't make this change through discussion with a coach, I have discussed it with an SSC while I was getting in-person coaching on each of the lifts. We saw no reason to change that programming, just techniques.

[David Hooper]

Bill pretty much answered everything. I'll just summarize how we're each approaching intermediate pressing.

Each week, Bill is doing a volume day (e.g., Monday for press, Wednesday for bench) of 5x5 at about 90% of the intensity day pressing. The intensity day (Friday for both) is 5-7 singles on press and a 1x5 on bench. It's in Nick's Intermediate Programming article and he has a four-day split option.

I am similar, but not the same. I do the same volume days, but I'm doing intensity pressing on Friday at 3x5, then intensity benching on Saturday at 3x5. I can do that because I'm coming in Saturday mornings to do my chinups and bench press, so I'm putting them on a four-day split. The difference in intensity was suggested to me by the coach I saw in October when I was learning the power snatch. He liked having more volume, even on intensity day. Once I approach another stall, I'll have some options to trade volume for intensity on Friday and Saturday.

So far, both approaches seem to be working. The big thing is to simply have more reps. In my case, my press went from 45 workset reps in two weeks (3 days of 5x3) to 40 workset reps in one week (one 5x5 and one 3x5).

[tiny&mighty]

Well, switching to light squats on deadlift day definitely felt like the right call yesterday.

Light squat: 2 sets of 5 at 135 lbs
Press: 3 sets of 5 at 77 lbs (heaviest set of 5 ever)
Deadlift: 2 sets of 3 at 205 lbs (PR)

The lower weight (70%) really helped me focus on all the things I need to keep in mind to fix my ongoing issues. Narrowest grip ever achieved on a low-bar squat.

Sets of 5 still working on the strict press. I am hoping to make it to 80 lbs before I have to change course.

I felt so fresh for the deadlift that I got greedy and added 5 lbs instead of 2.5. And it felt easier that any of the deadlift workouts I have done over the past month. I could probably have done a 4th rep on the second set.

Got a few snatches in afterwards, but my form still sucks balls.

Great workout overall. It did not turn me into a zombie for the rest of the day, and I feel surprisingly "fresh" today.

For programming, I will do exactly as Bill said. I have read Nick's article and watched his videos several times (and not only because I enjoy his beautiful voice), but there is a lot in there to unpack in there. My homework today is to go through his material and take a bunch of notes to inform what I will do next.

Thank you gentlemen for the feedback, the advice and the encouragement. It kind of sucks to be passionate about something while having very few (if any) people to talk about it. I am lucky to have you and that my husband has chosen to follow our lead. Otherwise this would be a pretty lonely journey.

[tiny&mighty]

So, three workouts later, here are my new numbers, all in PR territory:

Squat: 5 sets of 3 at 195 lbs
Press (strict): 3 sets of 5 at 78 lbs
Bench: 5 sets of 3 at 118 lbs
Deadlift: 2 sets of 3 at 210 lbs

BW remains stable around 122-123 lbs.

After the light day captured above, I had a very tough workout on 15 Nov. Every squat and bench press rep felt like a leap of faith. The squat was particularly gruesome, though it does not look so bad on video.

On 17 Nov, light squat day again.
- The press went very well considering that my last PR was a press 2.0 of two triples and three doubles at 78 lbs. Hopefully I can keep this up for few more pounds. I doubt I will make a hard switch to 5 sets of triples. I might as well just complete my 15 reps in the fewest sets possible as recommended by Nick with his beautiful voice.
- I got greedy again with my deadlift in an attempt to widen the gap with my squat. That jump felt harder than the last, but it still went up with no major issue, though bar path was sub-optimal. Still, I credit the light squat for this progression. Prior to implementing this modification, I was stuck with 2.5 lbs increments, hence the narrow gap between my squat and my deadlift.

Then I gave myself 2 days off until today's workout. I was experiencing various aches and pains this week and felt it was time for some extended rest, and it seemed better to do my next heavy-squat day on a Saturday, after a long night's sleep. I was nevertheless scared of attempting the squat and the bench press considering how excruciating both lifts had felt on Monday.
- I asked my husband to spot my squat first set, just in case my femur would split in two under the bar (which seems like a rational fear lately!). Yet that set went just fine so I kept going on my own. It was excruciatingly hard but I experienced no real issue until set 5. This one did not go so well. My stance was two narrow on the first rep so I had to adjust, and at that point my step-son showed up and started chatting with his dad upstairs, which was distracting during my last two reps. So I am going back to playing music when I work out. I nevertheless completed the set, though the 15th rep totally felt like this scene. I had a brief moment where I thought about racking the bar, but I guess am not a pussy until further notice.
- I asked my husband to spot my first bench press set too. The unracking is the scariest part for me. But I learned that benching with a spotter is way more distracting than squatting with a spotter. Also, I am kind of new to having pectoral muscles. They burned quite a bit during the first set. I got somewhat worried about the feeling but my husband says it happens. I carried on and completed the workout as scheduled.

Currently, my intent is to keep doing this until something fails. Then, I think I will go with this kind of four-day split:
- Intensity pull, volume squat
- Intensity press, volume bench
- Intensity squat, volume pull
- Intensity bench, volume press

I just don't think that having intensity press and bench press the same day is optimal for me. I will keep researching programming options, but this is what I have in mind at the moment. I am also unsure what sequence is the best, but I hope to get something that is optimal for the press and the deadlift. My squat is way ahead of my other lifts, so I am prepared to assume some risk in this respect, and I just don't care for the bench press.

Oh and I am giving up the snatch for the time being. Still working on my clean, but I have some lower-leg issues that do not respond well to jumps. Some days I can do them, but it is too unpredictable for hard-programming. I do cleans when I can, and chin ups when I cannot clean. So progress is unreliable and that is fine. You can't always get what you wan-ant.

[David Hooper]

I'm with you on so much of this. I'm constantly trying to get my deadlift a bit further ahead of my squat. It seems a 30-50 lb gap is optimal for me as it strengthens my lower back enough that the squat doesn't wreck it. Either way, squats are always purgatory, and that final rep is always in fear-of-failure range. As for benching: I'd love to have a liftoff to get past the unracking, but from that point forward, the spotter can leave the frame and just let me use the rails if I need them. I swear I'd have 5 more lb on the bench if I had a liftoff, though.

Good luck with the split on the presses. I'm dealing with the same question so I'll be watching.

You're getting into 2xBW range on deads and squats, though! Well done!

[Bill Anders]

Great work. Both of you!

It has been awhile since I've been in leap-of-faith territory on my squats, especially once I internalized Santana's discussion about undulating squats so that the deadlift can continue to progress. Well, that and my very inconsistent training schedule this year (on purpose). Regardless, like Hooper, I like that 30-50lb differential between the two, which right now puts me at squats being somewhere between 75-90% of my deadlift. Looking back at my logs, it seems like once my squat is 90%+ of my deadlift, that's when I start getting into trouble.

The key for me to start another undulation cycle on the squats is when my lower back starts locking up on me while doing mundane tasks like tying my shoes on any day, not just training days; nothing like standing up out of a chair and hobbling with a hand on my back like I'm 110 years old. At about the same time, I'll miss a deadlift (or two) or not even break the first off the floor. Those are all of my clues to do a 10% reset on my heavy squats and start working it back up from there, not worrying about the reset since I know that the deadlift is still working the same muscles. Here's Santana's clarification on the point, basically treating both the squat and deadlift as "one collective lift"-ish.

Since you're pulling just under 2x your bodyweight and your squat isn't far behind, that last link really applies to you, t&m (and you too, Hooper). A lot more than me, as I'm only pulling 1.7x my bodyweight right now, but dealing with a body that's a couple of decades more abused.

Keep at it, both of you!

[tiny&mighty]

Oh wow, gentlemen, this is extremely enlightening. Particularly for my husband who has been struggling with his deadlift lately (grip is not the issue with him). At age 59 and a BW of 210 lbs, he has been stuck in the 310-320 lbs range, though his squat is still progressing at 335 lbs. Do you think he should do a reset on his squat? If so, how much of a reset would you recommend? I think he also needs a bit of a break... He's hasn't been as energetic as he normally is (that is, annoyingly so) lately.

On my end, I will work on reassessing my "safety situation" on my next workout. I now squat facing the wall because it offers the best video angle for form checks. I have been recording every single work set since I upgraded my phone this summer. I do have the Rogue spotter arms but I prefer to squat inside the rack. I might try it anyway on a light day and see how this goes.

I am hoping to hit a 200 lbs squat before I change anything. It's psychological, I know, but I am sooo close! Then I could always slow down my squat progression by micro-loading with even smaller jumps, or just work on "maintaining" my squat for a few weeks. This will also depend on my next deadlift workout (tomorrow or Tuesday), where I intend to attempt 215 lbs.

[Bill Anders]

Based on my limited experience of going through that sticking point a few times, if he wants to progress with his deadlift, he will have to reset his squat, perhaps down 10% 10+% below his current successful deadlift x5 (e.g., 285-290), maybe more depending on how he's recovering and what his goals are. That's a strong squat, so he'll do fine with a reset that allows his deadlifts to progress. As you can see with Santana's comments, the chain is still getting the work. It does sound like he's getting beat up by the work, which will sap the energy out of him. Couple that with the frustration of being stuck on the deads and it's doubly so, no doubt. A squat reset will feel refreshing to him, and unsticking the deadlifts will be invigorating. And, as Hooper has advised you, make sure that your husband is doing his deads on his light squat day.

I just mentioned the "safety situation" after having been there. I dropped the bar onto the safeties, but found that it was easier to move forward by rolling the bar off of my back. Unfortunately, that meant going face-first into the wall. After that, I turned to face into the open and haven't had the issue. Sure, it makes filming a bit tighter, but it's still doable.

Get that 200! And that 215!!!!!

[David Hooper]

Letting the deadlift get ahead of the squat might be what the doctor ordered, even if it means dropping the squat weight back a bit. It'll come back in no time, and the extra recovery may be appreciated. In my experience, it's a lower back issue that drives this decision for me. If squats are absolutely beating the brakes off my lower back (as they do right now, actually), I look at that weight differential.

I'm actually considering that for myself once this week is over. Get that 405 over with (speaking of psychological goals!), end the NLP log, and recover a bit. I'm really beat up right now. It may be worth a temporary drop in work weights to let healing catch up. December's going to be a heavily interrupted month anyhow, so might as well roll with it.

[tiny&mighty]

New numbers:

Squat: 5 sets of 3 at 197.5 lbs
Press (strict): 3 sets of 5 at 79 lbs
Bench: 5 sets of 3 at 119 lbs
Deadlift: 2 sets of 3 at 215 lbs

Still pushing the squat to hit a 200-lbs squat on my next heavy day, but I will take a 10-15% reset afterwards, whether I succeed or not. My form is deteriorating from workout to workout, particularly in the knee department. It is starting to look a lot like the issues I was experiencing when I stalled at 170 lbs last spring.

Press still doing well; looking forward to adding another "real" plate next time!

Bench - dropped weight increment from 1.5 to 1 lb. I don't think I have much runway left on this one. Now 3 lbs away from a BW bench, which is my current goal at the moment.

Deadlift - added another 5 lbs and that was too greedy. Though I completed my two sets, the second one was done with terrible form. Also, my grip started to fail on my last rep. I am therefore going back to 2.5 lbs jumps; I think this is what I need to do if I want my grip strength to keep up for as long as possible.