Cue to help with "hips rising faster than chest"

[Tom Campitelli]

This has worked for me to fix a problem like what is described. By turning the elbows down your upper back will be flexed tighter together which will cause your chest to expand. Elbows nearly vertical.

You can see in this video of me squatting that I nearly lose the bar forward when my elbows kick up on the ascent, but on the descent my back is in a much better position with my elbows nearly straight down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvfIaXAVlPA

I think there are some other things about your squat that are causing your elbows to move around like that. Ideally, your elbows should stay largely in one place for the duration of the squat. As you descend, it appears that you are further extending your spine and looking upwards. As you do this, your elbows drop. On the ascent your lumbar spine goes into flexion, your knees come forward and the tension is taken out of the hamstrings. This is what pitches the barbell forward, not your elbows. Your elbows and their movements are useful for diagnosing this.

Now, milesdyson's squats that he posted here are just about as close to a textbook low bar squat as you are likely to see. Awesome hip drive from top to bottom with the spine locked in place throughout the movement, knees solidly in place, elbows back and still throughout the movement, and a downward gaze. Plus, he had 385 on the bar. Two words for those squats - fuckin' legit.

Now, I'm not trying to rag on your squat at all here, but the example you provided of elbows down being good is actually a symptom of some other problems with the movement.

[NolanPower]

The elbows I've had to force down over time because when I left them backwards or slightly up I was constantly losing weights forward as I've never really been a good squatter (think squat dud deadlift stud). Which is a certain body type where you are more or less built for deadlifting which creates a very tough time for squats as I have a pretty short torso with long limbs which causes me to have to be very bent over in a typical low bar back squat. This is the best I've been able to come up with. Miles squats look much better than mine, I can completely agree with that, and I'm trying to get my squats to look better using what I've picked up over the years.

The point is that if the elbows stay down then the other things cannot happen which is why its a cue that can help with this. Its just an all in one cue thats worked for me, but on maximal weights (the video is my most recent PR which I failed to match in competition unfortunately) obviously things get a little screwy, but you can see how had I done all that is required to keep my elbows down things may have worked out better.

[homerj742]

Took a video this morning, will hopefully have it up by the evening. The most glaring issue I noticed was lack of depth. Which I already know can be resolved by knees out, and a little wider stance. I'm sure you guys can help point out other stuff too.

Also, my IT bands are really tight. Would this be an obstruction to depth?

[Tom Campitelli]

The elbows I've had to force down over time because when I left them backwards or slightly up I was constantly losing weights forward as I've never really been a good squatter (think squat dud deadlift stud). Which is a certain body type where you are more or less built for deadlifting which creates a very tough time for squats as I have a pretty short torso with long limbs which causes me to have to be very bent over in a typical low bar back squat. This is the best I've been able to come up with. Miles squats look much better than mine, I can completely agree with that, and I'm trying to get my squats to look better using what I've picked up over the years.

The point is that if the elbows stay down then the other things cannot happen which is why its a cue that can help with this. Its just an all in one cue thats worked for me, but on maximal weights (the video is my most recent PR which I failed to match in competition unfortunately) obviously things get a little screwy, but you can see how had I done all that is required to keep my elbows down things may have worked out better.

I am not trying to beat this into the ground, but moving your elbows downward would have done little to help the squat. The squat was unbalanced by what happened in the lumbar spine, hamstrings, and knees. It was a posterior chain issue, although its effects show up throughout the movement, including the elbows.

The statement that pushing the elbows down will tighten upper the back does not make anatomical sense, although you can potentially contract the lats by doing this. To actually tighten the upper back, however, you are going to need to adduct the scapulae and this is accompanied by some rotation of the elbows backward.

Try this:

• Stand up straight with your arms hanging down.
• Raise your hands near your shoulders as if you were holding the bar on your back, but leave the elbows pointed downward. You should still be relaxed in this position, or at least more relaxed than you will be in a moment.
• Without changing the position of your lumbar, thoracic, or cervical spine, rotate your elbows back and up.
• What happens?

If you stay upright and keep your spine in the same position as when you started, the scapulae will adduct as the traps, rhomboids, and levators scapulae all contract. This motion is similar to what you do on the bench press to maintain tightness. Dropping your elbows and rotating them toward the coronal plane will relax these muscles.

The reason you are associating dropping the elbows with tightness in the upper back is because you are extending your thoracic spine under the load. This will push the scapulae down and rotate the shoulder joint toward the front of the body. Your humerus is getting moved into that position indirectly by your back extension and your elbows have to follow along. Once again, this is analogous to what you do in the bench. I would argue overextension of the spine under load is unwise for several reasons in the squat, but I am already well into a long post. I can elaborate if anyone is interested.

A neat diagram of the planes of the body along with some anatomical definitions can be found at spineuniverse.com.

I don't doubt that different cues, even ones that seem to be contrary to what would be normal, can be helpful. I also acknowledge that anthropometry can make different exercises more challenging. However, if you want a tight upper back for the low bar squat, dropping your elbows will not work. Your squat has a few very correctable issues that, when resolved, will fix the balance problems you experience at heavier weights.

[MikeD]

Dunno. Wendler like the elbows down cue, and even jams UP into the bar on the ascent.

[Tom Campitelli]

Dunno. Wendler like the elbows down cue, and even jams UP into the bar on the ascent.

I don't want to make it sound like you shouldn't squat with your elbows down, just that your back doesn't get tighter when you drop the elbows in a low bar squat. In fact, if you high bar squat, elbows down is the way to go. A wide stance powerlifting squat utilizes a different technique than the low bar variant. I'm definitely out of my depth when it comes to the powerlifting squat.

[homerj742]

Here we go, like I said, depth is waaayy high and IT bands are waaayyy tight.

Warm up 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2e91aeGTs

Warm up 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imEDUBKQ2wg

[NolanPower]

The Rippetoe variant of the squat setup is proven not to work for me through years of training. When I keep my elbows up and look down I consistently lose the bar forward (its how I've missed squats for years) which I even almost do in the current form I'm in on that squat where the form is designed for me to do anything but lose the bar forward, but I'm not the greatest technical squatter, but to say I haven't tried everything over the past 6 years would be a lie.

HomerJ it seems like you could stand to sit back more into your squats and continue to shove out the knees and that should create the depth that you need, the second video looks extremely close to depth where you only have another 1-2 inches to go at most. Other than that it looks fine. Also you shouldn't post warmups as form flaws don't come into play in warmups. Its why in general form videos should be max effort sets (described as a set where you could not have done an additional rep) as any form flaws should present themselves given that intensity level.

[homerj742]

Thanks Nolan.

Just an FYI, I didn't do any worksets due to my IT bands being so tight. I was basically "testing the waters". I'll be sure to get all my worksets next session.

[nisora33]

Hopefully what I'm about to say can help clarify and sort through some of the points you all have been making.

If I'm showing someone a high-bar squat, I'll usually teach them the elbows forward/under the bar cue that Wendler et al recommend, at some point. I will never do so when teaching someone to low-bar squat, because the tendency IME is to lose the bar down the back unless the trainee supports the bar in the hands/wrists, which is a bad idea as it promotes painful wrists and elbows in some.

If you understand functional anatomy, you understand that driving the elbows up/back actually tightens the upper back, as Tom has pointed out. The muscles that influence upper back tightness are:

- latissimus Dorsi/teres major
- trapezius
- rhomboid
- serratus posterior superior
- various deep back extensors that I don't have the patience to list

A tight upper back will display the following characteristics: shoulder blades retracted (rhomboids, middle trapezius), shoulders extended (latissimus dorsi, teres major) and ribs drawn backward and downward (serratus posterior superior et. al). By contrast, a "loose" upper back will usually demonstrate some or all of the following characteristics: shoulder blades protracted, shoulders flexed, and ribs separated forward and away. The take-home point is that the elbows back, used in conjunction with the chest up cue and a deep breath, contributes to upper back tightness.

I'm not arguing that the elbows forward/under the bar doesn't enable the chest to be kept higher, because it does--this can easily be observed if you try it yourself. But I'd wager that this effect has nothing to do with the upper back muscles made tighter by the act of shoving the elbows forward (for reasons discussed above) and everything to do with shifting the center of mass, necessitating a more upright chest position. This is similar to what the elbows up do in a front squat rack position.

Make sense? Correct me if I've glossed over anything or fucked up any of the details.

-Stacey