Squat technique advice

[Martin Bavngaard]

Hello.
I would really appreciate any feedback/advice on my squat. I am a novice, and I am trying to improve my techniques in the main lifts before adding any weight (thus the empty bar).
I am having a hard time performing and feeling the squat. I feel no soreness or activation in my legs neither during nor after squatting. After the recorded set, i only felt sore in my lower back because i tried to create lumbar extension, and in my hip flexors.



Thanks!

[Brodie Butland]

Correction: you feel sore in your lower back because you never actually extend it.

No problem...this happens sometimes. Watch this video, then try again:

Starting Strength: Video


A few other things to bear in mind:

(1) This is about control, not speed. I'd rather you do a slower, controlled motion to the bottom and get less of a bounce than that you divebomb and lose back extension (once you learn how to do it).

(2) An empty bar set will not tell me much about your form. Form breakdown typically occurs around at least 80% of one's 5RM, and a lot of times form problems with an empty bar set will resolve themselves after weight is added. We'll need to see some weight added to have good advice.

(3) Your knees are way too far back. Get them forward, and break your hips and knees at the same time.

[Martin Bavngaard]

Thank you very much for your answer, i really appreciate it.

(1) This is about control, not speed. I'd rather you do a slower, controlled motion to the bottom and get less of a bounce than that you divebomb and lose back extension (once you learn how to do it).

I actually performed the set in the video a few hours after watching the exact video you linked to for the first time, but I will definitely try to control both back extension and motion. As stated before, I only just recently found out how to contract the lower back muscles like in the video, so maybe it's a matter of practicing it enough.

(2) An empty bar set will not tell me much about your form. Form breakdown typically occurs around at least 80% of one's 5RM, and a lot of times form problems with an empty bar set will resolve themselves after weight is added. We'll need to see some weight added to have good advice.

I was unaware that that was the case. I thought that I could get the form down now, before adding weight. I'm afraid i can't upload another video in the near future, as i am recovering from abdominal surgery, and i am actually struggling to maintain (what i thought was) good technique under the empty bar.

(3) Your knees are way too far back. Get them forward, and break your hips and knees at the same time.

That i was also unaware of, but when i look at the pictures in the SSBBT-book, i see that you are definitely right.
A quick question: I thought that the low bar squat required you to shoot back your hips as if you were to sit in chair behind you? - isn't that why you practice the TUBOW-squat, to not have the knees extend in front of the foot?

[Satch12879]

A quick question: I thought that the low bar squat required you to shoot back your hips as if you were to sit in chair behind you?

Yes, but only once you set your knees a little bit ahead of your toes, that distance based on your individual anthropometry. The sequence is knees and hips, knees, ::bottom:: knees, knees and hips.

isn't that why you practice the TUBOW-squat, to not have the knees extend in front of the foot?

TUBOW is used to work out knee slide, which is when your knees keep moving throughout the movement. Knees are supposed to be set by about 1/3 to 1/2 portion of the descent and stay there. Its intention is to get you to set you knees and then not let them move further past their intended position until the ascent.

[Brodie Butland]

Thank you very much for your answer, i really appreciate it.



I actually performed the set in the video a few hours after watching the exact video you linked to for the first time, but I will definitely try to control both back extension and motion. As stated before, I only just recently found out how to contract the lower back muscles like in the video, so maybe it's a matter of practicing it enough.

If you don't have a significant athletic history before starting to lift, there's a decent chance you won't know how to voluntarily extend and hold your lower back. There are 2 or 3 males at every seminar with this issue. So you're by no means alone.

If you're still having issues by the next set, we'll work on some other diagnostic stuff.

One thing to keep in mind--if you go too deep, you'll be forced to lose your lumbar extension. So be extra vigilant about keeping your lower back extended...if you do, you'll hit bottom earlier than you are now (which is way too deep).

I was unaware that that was the case. I thought that I could get the form down now, before adding weight. I'm afraid i can't upload another video in the near future, as i am recovering from abdominal surgery, and i am actually struggling to maintain (what i thought was) good technique under the empty bar.

Ooh...sorry to hear that. How long ago was the surgery? Are you able to do isometric abdominal contractions without causing a problem?

As to the adding weight...this is a common misconception, so you're not alone. Empty bar sets don't usually tell us a lot, even though it should in theory be easier. For example, it's a lot easier to keep a hard abdominal contraction and to keep the weight over your midfoot when the weight is heavier because the bar just isn't heavy enough to make you work hard.

That i was also unaware of, but when i look at the pictures in the SSBBT-book, i see that you are definitely right.
A quick question: I thought that the low bar squat required you to shoot back your hips as if you were to sit in chair behind you? - isn't that why you practice the TUBOW-squat, to not have the knees extend in front of the foot?

Satch covered this above very well, so I'll just refer you to that.

[Martin Bavngaard]

Thank you for your answer.

One thing to keep in mind--if you go too deep, you'll be forced to lose your lumbar extension. So be extra vigilant about keeping your lower back extended...if you do, you'll hit bottom earlier than you are now (which is way too deep).

I see, i'll keep that in mind when approaching the bottom of the squat. I just assumed i was using the stretch reflex, but i see now that i am going so deep that i am losing all tightness in the lower back.

Ooh...sorry to hear that. How long ago was the surgery? Are you able to do isometric abdominal contractions without causing a problem?

I had surgery on January 7th, and had to go 4 weeks without any form of strenious physical activity. I am in fact having some trouble performing the Valsalva Maneuver and holding it more than 6-7 seconds. This is because of some irritation in the wound when "bloating" my stomach. So that might be a contributing factor to not performing the squat correctly.

As to the adding weight...this is a common misconception, so you're not alone. Empty bar sets don't usually tell us a lot, even though it should in theory be easier. For example, it's a lot easier to keep a hard abdominal contraction and to keep the weight over your midfoot when the weight is heavier because the bar just isn't heavy enough to make you work hard.

Ah, i see. Then i may have to wait a bit until i can maintain abdominal contraction without feeling pain (as stated above), before doing heavy-weight squats. Meanwhile i'll just have to work on the lumbar position and maintaining tightness.

Satch covered this above very well, so I'll just refer you to that.

I'm afraid i don't quite understand the sequence Satch described? I got the rest of it, though.

[composite]

So it the max squat depth set by the point that can you no longer keep the low back tight? For me, my hips start to rotate just before parallel, but I can still keep some back tightness. Anything lower than parallel and my hips rotate more and to the point where I can't keep tightness (much like the posted video).

[Brodie Butland]

So it the max squat depth set by the point that can you no longer keep the low back tight? For me, my hips start to rotate just before parallel, but I can still keep some back tightness. Anything lower than parallel and my hips rotate more and to the point where I can't keep tightness (much like the posted video).

I'm not saying that. We never squat high, period. I'm saying that unless you're hyper flexible, you necessarily will be losing back extension after going much more than 2 inches or so below parallel.

[Satch12879]

"Knees and hips and knees and knees and knees and hips" is a cue that gets you to think about the sequence of movements within the whole lift. It describes what is moving at various points in the descent and ascent. So:

1. Knees and hips break together - "Knees and hips..."
2. At about 1/3 to 1/2 of the descent, the knees are set in their position slightly past the toes. The back angle is set at this point, thus the hips no longer close. You sit back in to the bottom by rotating about the knees. - "...and knees..."
3. Bottom just slightly below parallel is reached
4. Hip drive out of the hole, knees are still set, back angle is the same - "...and knees..."
5. Knees move back on the ascent, back becomes vertical, you stand up - "...and knees and hips."

[Martin Bavngaard]

Thank you for the clarification Satch, I think I understand the sequence now.

I'd like to return to your advice Brodie. I tried to incorporate your advice regarding depth and lower back extension. I would really appreciate your eyes on this again.





I know that the forum guidelines said 1 video per post, but I thought that since we talked about it earlier, I would provide a video with a bit of weight as well. (it's not 80% of my 5RPM, but it felt rather heavy nonetheless)