LONG READ - Elbow and shoulder Position

[Geoffrey Dumas]

Good Morning,

I just attended, and failed, my first SSS. So I got that out of the way. I'm not part of the elite group I wanted to be part of, but the people who have taken the Coaching test and failed is still an exclusive group! lol. So in an attempt to further immerse myself in the information, I am making a post about ELBOW POSITION!!!! A highly contentious subject in the forum it seems. With that said, let's dig in.

Over the past few workouts, I have accumulated videos of my heavy squat days with the intent of focusing on my elbow position. Now, I have never had elbow pain while squatting. I'm lucky that way, or so i'm lead to believe according to the number of posts about elbow pain. With that in mind, I'm concerned about bar path. I was told that essentially I was high bar squatting into a low bar position. Not bad, but not good. These are some photos of where my elbows should be and where they are. (with one more photo of where they should be zoomed in a little if anyone wants a closer look). Both are below my scapula. One just has a much higher elbow position - and again, I've never had elbow pain from squatting like this.

It's a slide show because I apparently don't know how to upload pictures...My Slideshow - YouTube

Compared with several pictures from the book: My Slideshow - YouTube

Now I've read the Bill Hannon SSC article on ID and correcting thoracic flexion, and the Dr. Feigenbaum, MD, SSC article on "the elbow problem". I just want to know, as I believe this forum is used for, observations about an individual. In the photos, I'm not flexed in the upper spine, but one photo does have shoulder over extension. the other two photos IMO have good looking elbows and a much lower bar position.

Now here's the point to ponder; the book picture shows the model (the person) with the extrapolated skeletal x-ray vision shot with the bar "below the scapulas" with no thoracic flexion. Cool, however, when he's at the bottom of the squat his elbows are much lower. This was the corrected position for my elbows. I'm just trying to sort out if the bar is held by the posterior delts, but extending the shoulders more creates a bigger shelf (the same way we drive the elbows up, flex the shoulders for a catch in the power clean), wouldn't we want our elbows higher assuming no thoracic flexion? Accepting that we low bar squat for a reason... reasons, a lower bar is better. But as you'll see in the videos to follow, for those of you who are still following at all, my squat is quite a bit less precise now than my pre seminar squat. Additionally, I am getting left side elbow pain intra-set. (that said it does go away after the session and I am aware that there are asymmetries and unequal wrist flexion on both side. ie. my right side is extended more and is the pain free side.) SO, trying to wrap all of this up, my first video has me squatting consistently, but with what I was told was shoulder over extension inherent to thoracic flexion, thus placing the bar too high on my back. My last video has a lower bar position and a more sporadic bar path. Do I take higher bar position for familiarity, consistency, and stability or lower the bar which did make the squats feel noticeably easier, but less consistent. For the record, I don't consider my thoracic spine flexed while I squat (there are other issues I'm working on concurrently) but I'm obviously not an authority and open to discussion. I'm leaning towards - do what you're told TTP, but I'm just looking for some discussion on the matter and a more informed opinion.

FYI; based on my changing schedule and the crushing nature of the NLP, this marks the end of my 3rd novice progression and I'll be moving on to intermediate programming again. Final workout was 360 x5, 325 x5 x2. 5'7" male, 190lbs, 30y/o, 2 kids, full time student.

Thank you for any input.

Chronological Order:
1 16 Aug - YouTube (pre seminar)
https://youtu.be/qC56Fi1R-II
https://youtu.be/0MmXCwigA4E
https://youtu.be/rwS-eWwYhj4
https://youtu.be/qdrANVU1yhE
https://youtu.be/poBVVLvRIUA

[Pete Troupos]

In your slideshow, which of the photos is the one they put you in at the seminar? The first? And the last was your previous position?

[SSZach]

I am in the process of trying to figure this out myself because of a lingering problem in my elbow. So far the most success I've had is:

-Staying as tight as I can from head to toe. Pulling my shoulders back together as hard as I can.
-Keeping hands narrow, elbows under the bar.
-Push my head back. This doesn't mean tilting my chin up. It means driving the back of the head toward my traps. This advice came from something Dave Tate wrote and seems to help me stay tight up top.
-If it doesn't feel right when I unrack the bar, rack it and get it right. Doing a whole set under pain is going to make the problem 10x worse. If I unrack the bar pain-free, it generally stays that way throughout the set.
-Finally, focus on keeping my elbows "pinned down" when I go to rack the weight. I noticed when I was racking the weights, I was flaring my elbows out slightly, and this is would make a pain-free set go bad real fast.

I can't remember how well this jives with SS, but it's been helpful for me.

[Geoffrey Dumas]

In your slideshow, which of the photos is the one they put you in at the seminar? The first? And the last was your previous position?

Correct; Slides 1 and 2 are my corrected position, while the third slide was my previous default postion.

[Geoffrey Dumas]

SSZach,

Thank you. That was an excellent summary of advice. My next squat session is Tuesday. I'll have this thread open and review it before each set.

[Dalton Clark]

My two cents is that is takes some time to get used to new form. Also something about it looks like the bar isn't stable. Grip width maybe? Also while it is true that higher elbows means a bigger shelf, once the bar is secure additional shoulder extension does nothing for you. So the answer is no, higher elbows isn't always better. In fact, excessively high elbows tends to make the bar less stable because you aren't applying any force to pin the bar against the spine of the scapula. High elbows tends to put the hands on top of the bar too much, and you end up pushing down. I'm tired so this might not make a lot of sense.

[SSZach]

Thanks. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any luck with it.

[dhurstell]

A long read, but a worthwhile one.

Im working on the SAME issue. I deloaded 20% to try to get my form correct (collapsing and rounding thoracic spine at the bottom, too-wide grip and elbow pain). Unfortunately, even with an empty bar, I'm still seeing my elbow flare up at the bottom of the squat (a sure sign the spine is rounding... well that and the bar rolling up onto my neck). I like that cue about keeping your head back. Will give that a try tomorrow.

Keep up the good work.

[Greg Ruhl]

A good shelf is achieved by pinching the scapula together with the elbows in. When you do that, more deltoid meat is rotated under the bar. IIRC, the books talk about "elbows up" because people were taking a relaxed grip and this cue helped. However, people are now overdoing this cue.

Regarding elbow pain, I had problems when I tried to force myself into a tighter position and then squatted under load. My problem was that I was supporting the load with my arms and not my back.