High bar technique

[timelinex]

If anything, to my eye, your weight looks like it's going forward in the hole. I don't see any evidence of your weight being on your heels, even if it feels that way. At the very bottom, I see your heels pick up ever slightly on some reps.

Your knees might be annoyed because in the hole, they get a bit slammed forward. I think that because your hams are more slacked/less stretched high bar, you're bouncing off your calves rather than off tight hams. This shifts all your weight (along with your knees) forward in the bottom. This could bug your knees.

As far as depth, a direct side video would really show it, but to my eye, you're going more past parallel than needed - look at the rogue box behind you - you can consider it "parallel". Compare your thigh angle to that. As far as what is ok depth, your hip crease going below your knee is the mark, but for all the things a 45 degree angle does show, it doesn't allow as good a depth analysis as side, hip height. If there are any SSC or more experienced forum members who disagree with me here, I welcome the input.

Your depth might get properly cut off just from better bracing. Don't go any deeper than you can get while tight, and get MUCH tighter to start. Try that, and film from side. That might clean the depth and knee issues up for you.

I will focus on staying tight as possible today and see where that lands me. I will try to record it from the side.

My knees do get slammed forward at the bottom, and that seems like an extremely common thing in High bar (atleast from every video I've seen). I'm guessing I would have to cut depth quite a bit for them not to go forward, but I dont know.

no expert, no coach,
but are you dropping too fast,
and then hence bouncing your hams and calves, aggravating knees,
are you dropping too fast?

I'm not sure how fast you are supposed to go, but I'm going down just as slow as I went up on my first rep.

What was going on with your shoulder/elbow? I was getting a lot of bicep tendon aggravation after LBS in both my shoulder and elbow for a while, but I made some changes to my grip and the pain has gone away.

Shoulder:
My problem was that I was placing the bar too low on my back. Because of this, I had to lean over more to keep the bar from rolling down my back, but when I came out of the bottom, the bar would roll up my back and I had to crank it in by extending my shoulders to keep it over the mid-foot. The excessive shoulder extension was wrecking my bicep tendon in my shoulder.

Elbow:
After I found the right bar position, I also started pointing my shoulders down to avoid any extra aggravation while my shoulder healed. The problem I found was that I was pointing my elbows too far down and they were bearing too much of the load in the squat, which resulted in a lot of elbow pain. The fix was to stop propping the bar up as much with the base of my palm, to let the correct position on my back bear most of the load, and to extend my shoulders (elbows up) just very slightly. This happy middle ground alleviated most of the pain I was experiencing.

Unfortunately my answer isn't that simple. I have a few threads mentioning the problem, but here is the last if you are interested:

Brachialis & shoulder pain

To summarize: The latest thing that I have figured out is that it's in the right spot on my back, but at the grip width that my flexibility allows, the bar starts to slide down my back at the top which forces my arms to hold the weight (all while being at the limit of their flexibility). Stretching alot and narrowing the width creates a better shelf and HELPS, but makes my shoulder scream for mercy because its past my natural flexiblity. The width that would completely fix the problem isn't even possible for me to get into. I think a thumbs around grip with bent wrists (but using wrist wraps) might end up being the solution because it allows me to narrow my grip much more than a thumbs over grip.

At this point though, I have concluded that even if there is a "right" position for me; I won't be able to figure out the right grip till my shoulder/elbow is less pissed off.

[Charlie Davies]

1. No shoulder pain at all (amazing), but it definitely loaded up my wrists. Not too bad. I put on wrist wraps to help on my 2nd and 3rd set and that helped a little.

2. I didn't have any serious pain in my elbows, but did feel a little soreness in my left elbow. Just barely. So I'm guessing thats because my elbow was already inflamed.

In HB squats, gravity pulls the bar straight down onto your traps. Minimal hand force is required, just enough to keep the bar from rolling. Don't push or pull on the bar.

The only reason you use HB instead of LB is to let your elbow/shoulder heal, right? Don't allow HB squats to stress your arms, or else the whole thing is pointless.

The forwards knee motion at the bottom very often hurts people. You should address that if you are getting knee and hip pain.

[nkupianist]

Posting on my phone, and on a post as long as yours, quoting is a pain via mobile. But as you said you'll do, I'd first try just bracing very hard and not letting yourself descend lower than you can go braced and tight. If that doesn't shave off a couple inches (viewed from side), I found a good place to start was to start the ascent exactly when I felt my calves and hams make any contact. At this point, it's become fairly automatic - it will for you too. Now, if I go too deep on a rep (usually if I'm feeling lazy and fatigued and my bracing is off), I feel the knee bounce and make sure to control better on the next rep. You'll get a sense for it.

[timelinex]

Did HB yesterday again and it went alot better. I'm getting more used to the movement.

Heres the things that I think went well:

1. I widened my grip and my wrists no longer hurt at all.
2. I think you were right about the depth. I went up 10# to 245# and tried to tighten things up and slow things down. I definitely went a higher than last time, but according to video I'm pretty positive depth it still good.
3. My knees didn't bother me.

I have 2 remaining issues I believe:

1. My neck still hurts. It didn't hurt after the first 2 sets, but on the 3rd set it did and I could feel the bar was sitting on my spine/bone. Maybe I placed it took high?

2. On 1 or 2 of my reps each set I'm drifting forward over my toes. Not sure if I am leaning to far over since I'm used to LBBS or if I just need to pickup my chest faster out of the hole.

Here is a video from the side:

[nkupianist]

Glad things are feeling a little better.

The camera is above hip height, but I think you are a tad high on some reps now. However, it looks to me like you're trying to squat mostly via knee flexion. This is likely why your weight and bar path are shifting. Notice how your hips actually shift forward when your knees bounce forward in the hole - hips should be reaching back here. It's still useful to think about sitting back with your hips during a HBS. A HBS is less hip dominant than a LBS, but it's not all quad like a front squat This time, try simultaneously shoving the knees forward/ out harder than you're doing now and sitting back with your hips - especially think hips back toward the hole. I suspect that will take care of the bar path some. Of course continue trying to be tight and controlled. Also, hip height to slightly below it will make depth easier to judge. Tell your camera person to get lower than they did here.

Ah, good point on the neck. If it's against that bone then yeah it's a little higher than I'd go. I put it on the lower side of what would be considered "high bar". This also has the benefit of adding a slight amount of hip drive back into the movement, since your torso will incline forward a tad more.

That make sense?

[timelinex]

Glad things are feeling a little better.

The camera is above hip height, but I think you are a tad high on some reps now. However, it looks to me like you're trying to squat mostly via knee flexion. This is likely why your weight and bar path are shifting. Notice how your hips actually shift forward when your knees bounce forward in the hole - hips should be reaching back here. It's still useful to think about sitting back with your hips during a HBS. A HBS is less hip dominant than a LBS, but it's not all quad like a front squat This time, try simultaneously shoving the knees forward/ out harder than you're doing now and sitting back with your hips - especially think hips back toward the hole. I suspect that will take care of the bar path some. Of course continue trying to be tight and controlled. Also, hip height to slightly below it will make depth easier to judge. Tell your camera person to get lower than they did here.

Ah, good point on the neck. If it's against that bone then yeah it's a little higher than I'd go. I put it on the lower side of what would be considered "high bar". This also has the benefit of adding a slight amount of hip drive back into the movement, since your torso will incline forward a tad more.

That make sense?

It seems like most of the issues and pains were hopefully just part of the learning curve of a new movement. I did 250# on my last workout and it felt EASIER than my last workout. I only started 'slowing down' on the last set. My neck, knees and wrists didn't hurt at all (and I forgot to even wear wrist wraps). I think I did hit good depth as well, but I didn't tape it. I'm thinking I might add 10# on my next workout tomorrow.

I will try to sit back a little more, but I'm not sure it's going to happen. I've heard this same critique about both my LBBS and HBBS now. That my knees go too far forward and no hip drive. Nothing I change has helped, so at this point I'm not sure if it's just my body proportions or I need some in person guidance (even though, in contrast to everyone here, the in person SSC said my LBBS form was fine).

I'll post the video after the gym.

[nkupianist]

Interesting re: the SSC's opinion. Hey, their opinion > mine.

Glad pain is subsiding.

Just to clarify, my issue wasn't how much your knees go forward, or really hip drive (although I realize that reaching back with the hips toward the bottom facilitates hip drive). It was just that bounce of your knees at the bottom. Your knees will be decently forward in the bottom of a HBS, but do your best to get them forward quickly and keep them there. What you don't want is a bouncing effect in the bottom where your knees shoot forward (knee slide as it's usually called on here) - that can really bug the knees. So, if you're getting your knees out sooner and not trying to get to the bottom using only your knees/quads, you hopefully will be able to reach back with your hips a little more on the descent. To summarize, simultaneously think knees forward/out hard, hips back on the way down. See if it helps.

Good luck.

[timelinex]

Well the good news is the 10LB jump worked and I'm now at 260LB, which is 10% less than my 3x5 PR 290LB LBBS. So Hopefully now it will be some real progress.



The bad news is other than making sure to hit depth, I don't think I fixed the other things (lack of hip drive and my knee slide). I think a few of the reps didn't have knee slide but some did. I definitely got bucked forward on a few reps (like the last rep of the video). Why am I getting bucked forward? Is it from my hips rising faster than my chest? Should I start lifting my chest from the bottom? Or is it because I'm bent over too much for high bar? I can't tell.

[nkupianist]

Hey, that's actually better. Re-watch the previous video - your bar path and knees are substantially improved. Look how much more forward the bar got in the hole in the previous video compared to now, especially considering you're getting better depth here. Nice job.

Yeah, there's still a bit of knee slide, and your knees mildly still keep moving forward the entire lift instead of getting where they need to be early in the descent and staying there. Things I'd say to keep doing will sound really familiar - get the knees forward and out as hard as you can early while pushing the hips back, and continue sitting back with the hips the whole lift. To my eye, doing this has already made some improvement - it just may take some time to really hone it in 100%. You don't look loose to me, but of course, it can never hurt to brace harder - tightness keep your descent controlled and minimize any bouncing action you have going on in the bottom.

Any other experts on here (which I do not claim to be) have further advice here on how to stop that bit of knee slide and forward bar path he has going on?

[timelinex]

This is my first set from my last workout. I think it was not bad!



Unfortunately my last set (didn't record) definitely fell apart as I started to really grind. I found that on the last 2 reps that it felt like I definitely would not have completed them unless I bucked forward out of the hole and then worked on picking up my chest....The feeling was that if I tried to control a slow neutral upward movement, I would have just stalled shortly after the bottom. I know feelings don't matter and it is probably something else falling apart in my form at the time. Hard to know in the moment.

I did have a question though. I know on the LBBS leading with your chest is a big no no. But since this is a HBBS is trying to lead with your chest the correct thing to do? Should I focus on really try to pull my chest up out of the hole, or should I try to remain neutral out of the hole?