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Thread: Squat Form Check - Knee Travel

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    The simple fix is more back angle earlier in the descent. But this is sometimes hard for people to do without a coach yelling about it every rep. It is counter-intuitive, it feels funny, and most people will not do it if they have been squatting upright for any length of time.
    I'll focus on that tomorrow and if I can't solve it on my own, I'll move on to TUBOW.

    Also, what was the spelling mistake you corrected below? Did you change my "whether" to "wether"?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssnider3 View Post
    This confirms my suspicion. I had actually decided just this morning that I would widen my stance on Friday to see if that would help me get more hip drive and be less vertical. I'm just not sure by how much, but I'm going to adjust stance width during my warmups. I'll video my working set and post.

    Another thing I'm questioning is wether or not I should reset to make this adjustment. Any opinion?
    Correction: ... that I would NARROW my stance...

    Maybe this is why you listed "Spelling issues" Rip?

  3. #13
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    Completed today's squats and recorded a few sets. It was a PR day for me 1x5@275lb. + 2x5@260. I followed Rip's advice and tried to get more back angle early in the descent. I haven't used TUBOW yet. I think my attempt at getting more horizontal definitely improved my hip drive as I could feel more power near the bottom. But based on what I'm seeing in the videos, while it was a step in the right direction, I think I still need more time under the bar practicing it. My knees were still traveling forward to much during the first few sets, but by the time I reached my working set, they were significantly better I think. I also want to note that I realize now that I was flaring my elbows up a bit on a couple of the sets. I'm not sure why that happened, but maybe it was because I was trying to force myself to lean forward more than usual? I'll address that.

    Here are all the sets I recorded:

    1st attempt at form correction (Empty Bar / 1st warmup set)
    Shared album - Greg Snider - Google Photos

    4th warmup set (155x3)
    Shared album - Greg Snider - Google Photos

    5th warmup set (210x2)
    Shared album - Greg Snider - Google Photos

    Working Set (275x5)
    Shared album - Greg Snider - Google Photos


    My question to any coaches out there is, "How do I proceed?" Since I progressed slightly, I'm still wondering if I should drop back 10-15lbs and work up 5lbs per session to try to get this ingrained. Or, maybe I should stay the course and use my "light" days and warmups to perfect things. Should I still consider TUBOW or did I make enough progress to justify leaving it out for now?

  4. #14
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    I'll give a brief update here to keep anyone from having to read the entire thread. My squat form has been too vertical and my knees have been traveling forward throughout the entire descent. Jeff suggested TUBOW and Rip suggested a simpler fix would be to try to get more back angle earlier in the descent, although it might be difficult without a coach. I'm trying Rip's suggestion first and I think I've improved, but I'm also thinking I may still need TUBOW. Friday was a PR for me (1x5@275lbs. with 2 backoffs @95%). Today I squatted 80% of Friday's PR (3x5@220lbs.) while I worked on improving form. From watching my recordings, I feel like I've improved my back angle and I'm getting more hip drive. However, my damn knee still travels forward on most reps throughout the entire descent. Something else that I'm seeing is that I should probably getting more depth. However, I think until I fix the knee problem, more depth is only going to cause the knees to shift forward more. Is it TUBOW time? Any other advice to fix this? Recording from today is below.

    "Light Day" Final Working Set (220 lbs.)

    Shared album - Greg Snider - Google Photos
    Last edited by Greg Snider; 10-22-2018 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Clarification

  5. #15
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    Go ahead and bring in TUBOW (and a belt would help as well). Watch what you're doing the last couple of inches, though - you get soft and divebomb. Stay tighter at the bottom.

  6. #16
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    Thanks Jeff, I'll go ahead and start with TUBOW. As for a belt, I just ordered one from Pioneer last week and it looks like I'll be waiting 3-4 weeks until it arrives. On Friday, I tried using a velcro belt that I really never use, but I've owned for a couple of years. It started really digging into me at the bottom of the squat so I kinda tossed it aside, hoping I could just wait until my other belt arrived. I'm not sure if its too wide, or if it was sliding down and should have been tighter. I'll try using it again when I'm working with TUBOW.

    In which video are you seeing me "get soft and divebomb"? Is it in the most recent one I posted or is it all of them? I ask because I'd also like to be able to identify it when I'm watching my squat.

  7. #17
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    I TUBOW'd today under an empty bar for quite a few sets and then progressed through sets of 5 with very light weights (~42% 5RM - today is a rest day). I recorded most of the sets and watched each recording before performing the next set. Near the end of my sets I got rid of TUBOW and I'll explain why.

    In the past, I've never attempted to measure the distance which my knee travels forward. Going through the TUBOW setup showed me that the correct position at which my knees should stop traveling forward is about in-line with the tip of my toes. Therefore, the TUBOW was placed at the tip of my toes.

    I found that my knees weren't traveling too far forward as they never knocked over the TUBOW and mostly made minimal contact or sometimes no contact. However, when there was no contact with TUBOW my form was still lacking. Even when my knees are within the acceptable range of forward travel, they cross that distance within the entire descent and not in the first 1/3 as they should. Trying to shoot my knees out early to touch the TUBOW didn't feel right, nor did it seem to help my form. I felt as though TUBOW was complicating things, not correcting them.

    Near the end of the session I threw TUBOW aside and tried to really emphasize driving my hips BACK and not focusing so much on what my knees were doing. This was immediately a significant improvement and I think I now have a better understanding of why Rip described this method as "simpler". TUBOW might have worked better if my knees were shooting too far forward, but worrying about making my knees hit TUBOW at 1/3 depth, then trying to make them stop at 1/3 depth, then keeping them in place while my hips drop, felt like a very unnatural work-around and a totally different technical approach. It also felt like it was opening the door to let new problems creep in.

    I feel like my real problem is that I'm not driving my hips BACK, and my knee travel is a result of that problem. Driving the hips back is the original SS plan, and I think I need to focus on that while recording my sets to ensure my form is improving. So, while TUBOW wasn't a quick fix, it did give me a little more insight into the problem. I appreciate your advice and welcome any further advice/comments/etc.

    Thank You

  8. #18
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    Below is a video of today's squats. As you'll find in the thread, I've been working to improve setting my knees and getting my hips back to squat with a more horizontal back angle. I've also starting using a belt.

    This is my second set of 5 @ 260lbs. Im working my way back up after a reset. I reset due to travel and sickness, but it's helped give me time to work on my form. While I feel like I've improved, I wish my knees would still set a little earlier and that my back angle was slightly more horizontal. Can I get some opinions from those with more experience?

    Shared album - Greg Snider - Google Photos

  9. #19
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    Moar chest, less elbows. Get your gaze out to where your shoes are, not between your feet.

  10. #20
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    I usually place my tennis shoes (white ones in the video) about 3.5 feet in front of me while squatting. I use the toes of the shoes as a place to direct my gaze. I've been doing this for quite a while now and I was doing it during the set in question as well. After reading your comment, I re-watched my video and I can see that it looks like my gaze is lower than it actually is. However, I'm staring directly at the toe of the shoes in front of me which is exactly why I place them there. If you pause the video during my descent, you'll notice that my spine is in neutral alignment and it puts the direction of my gaze is about 3.5ft in front of me. My eyes tend to squint some in most of my lifts. In the video, my upper eyelids are somewhat visible and partially squinting which may make it seem like my gaze is actually lower than it is.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "Moar chest." For some time I've noticed that my elbows move up farther than they probably should. I tend to start a set with them in proper position, but throughout the set they end up getting too high.

    Based on you're suggestions, maybe you're saying that I need more thoracic extension and it needs to be tighter? That would really tie all of these things together. Over time I've had to work on increasing shoulder mobility to get a more narrow grip width and I thought I had reached a good point, but maybe I could stand to bring it in a little "Moar." I'll try narrowing my grip width to see if that'll get my upper body a bit tighter.

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