Squat Has Made Me a Broken Man

[Devyn Stewart]

Hello, everyone, I believe I'm squatting wrong. Here are three videos from my recent training session. #2 and #3 may be of more interest than the first, which is a closeup mostly to judge depth.

First set of 5:
YouTube

Second set of 5:
YouTube

Third set (only 3 this time):
YouTube

I am sustaining a good amount of injury/general beat up-edness. I have been dealing with a shoulder injury detailed here from squats. I came to the conclusion that it was a tendinopathy; I no longer believe that to be true.

I also have recently gotten a mean case of tendinitis in my elbows, but much worse in my right. It got to the point that beginning to bench, the 45 pound bar was agonizing. It get better and I eventually hit my working weights, but it was horrible just after squatting.

Lastly, my knees began to hurt a few weeks ago. It comes and goes, but it seemed to get better when I really focused on keeping them pushed out during the squat. This is the "injury" I'm least concerned about, but I thought I should still mention it.


After watching video of the 2nd squat, I realized that I'm losing my balance forward and essentially good morning-ing the weight up at a certain point in the lift. On the 3rd set, I really tried to keep the weight over mid-foot, but it looks like I still didn't manage. I don't think that's the only problem because of my shoulder and elbow injuries, but I'd appreciate any cues to fix this. As for my shoulder and elbow, it may be relevant to say that occasionally (today is one such occasion) I will get red imprints of the bar on my back that will bruise. I'm not sure if this is normal, but it could be good information.

I will appreciate any help!

[Geoff Bischoff]

Hey man, been awhile since I checked up in detail. Some questions:

1) I track your log but don't watch how often you take any deloads or light days; do you have programmed light days? I know you're in LP, but you're in LP a second time, not your first, so your gross weight on the bar is more than last time, so systemic fatigue is more a thing now than your first go-around. So: Any chance your beat-up feeling is no-fooling overtraining?

2) Elbow tendonitis. The dead side-on angle doesn't show your whole grip, but your elbow height is not so high I'd be immediately alarmed. Are you proud-chesting as hard as you can? As you step away from the rack, do a deliberate mental analysis: As a percentage, what % of the barbell weight seems to rest on your back and what % in your hands? 340 is vol-PR weight for you, so maybe it's hard to assess when you're getting smashed by new weight, but it's an important metric to take. Have you taken time to pin-fire with mucho chins?

3) Knees, hips, et al. Stance width was recently a problem for me. Much more recently than it should have been for a guy who's been at this for so many months now. What's your stance width like? Maybe some video from rear or 3/4 rear next time?

4) Good-morning. Doesn't look like it in the video. I know there's a feeling where a heavy weight misgrooves forward slightly, maybe only an inch, but that inch creates a difficult moment arm to overcome due to the near-maximal weight on the bar. Your third set, the triple, here's my quick read from the sideview. Rep 1: Very, very solid. Bar speed good, depth unquestionably reached, hip drive sufficient to the task, KNEES TO LOCKED SLOT by 1/3 of descent. Rep 2 and 3: Both look like misgrooves forward, so that you have to fight them back in to get the weight up. On what I believe is a related, and likely causal note: Your knees slide forward at the bottom.

I watched several times to be sure, using background items as reference points, but rep 2 and 3, you can observe your knees move roughly 2 inches further forward when you hit the hole. I'd bet dollars to donuts that's your culprit both on the intermittent knee pain AND the balance issue. You need to find your superpower that keeps your knees from excessive forward drift.

[positronbomb]

You know how to squat you are just discovering some weak sticking points as you're approaching your true 5 rep max, and are feeling some fatigue.
The hips get ahead of the upper body probably because it's easier to get out of the hole when you're truly pushing hard, then you start to become unbalanced because the upper body is becoming more parallel with the floor, you over correct and start only using the posterior chain to start getting your chest up and not driving with your legs/quads too.
It might be because your quad strength is the weak link in the chain.
Maybe including trap bar deadlift as an accessory could help improve your quad strength.
Or maybe you just need some cues to focus on correcting the problem.

[Ivan Stepic]

This is not a good morning, this is a result of you allowing your knees to travel forward too far. Heavy weights are lifted with your hips and your body apparently understands that. So control your knees better on the descent and reach back with your hips. This is also probably the reason why your knees are bothering you.

Sucks to hear about the elbows. Try playing around with grip width. I am, for example, flexible enough to take a pretty narrow grip on my squats but when I do that my elbows start hurting. Other than that, tightness in upper back is always a good thing so maybe thinking "proud chest" would benefit you and try to film yourself from an angle described in the sticky next time.

[Erik Y]

These are nice-looking squats. On the second set, you’re having the same problem that I’m having now, which is:

1. Your hips come up a little early on the squat, which gets you a little off-balance on the way up.
2. This spooks you, so you try not to let the weight go forward on the next few reps, but this causes you to put your torso angle too far upright, which only makes the problem worse.

This results in a vicious cycle. It’s a tough one to beat, too - I catch myself doing this mid-set and still can’t get myself to go forward. When the weight’s off-balance, it crushes you, and that can really psyche you out.

As others have mentioned, you’re squatting a lot for LP - twenty-five pounds more than the first time! Why not switch to a top set with back-offs for a few weeks and then move on to intermediate programming when that stops working?

[Devyn Stewart]

Wow, guys! I didn't expect so many responses so quickly! Thanks a lot! I'll respond to you each individually:


Geoff: Thanks for your reply. You're probably the one of the forums who is most familiar with my training, except me, of course, so I value your opinion.
1) I haven't taken a formal "deload" or reset since beginning this second LP. That being said, I've had to skip exercises and things, but I almost always squat, which is the culprit for this injury. I took a light day last week, but I think that might have been a fluke. From what everyone else is saying, I'm beginning to think a light day wouldn't be a bad idea. I'm not sure I'm overtrained, though. I don't feel very fatigued day-to-day and for the most part, feel recovered for my workouts. Perhaps I'm not very good at gauging that, but I would suspect a form error before overtraining.
2) This is something I've been paying a lot of attention to. I would say that around 80-90% of the weight is on my back, but I can definitely feel some weight in my arms. The thing is, though, it hurts equally at 135 as 340. I've heard the cue of "put the weight on your back" and tried that, but it doesn't seem to help too much during the actual set, when motor patterns kind of take over. I haven't been doing any chins because I was hoping, after my fiasco with RPE training, to stick very strictly to the progression found in PPST3 for the LP, which doesn't include chins until the deadlift/power clean schedule goes stale, which it hasn't for me. I'd be willing to add in some chins if it would help, though. I am just trying to be very strict with unnecessary changes for change's sake.
3) This was back when I was squatting a bit high, but I've got a video from such an angle of 315 here.
4) I completely agree on the knee situation. If you take the set in context, video #3 was taken right after watching #2. I noticed the knee slide at the bottom and remembered that your knees shouldn't move much for the last 2/3rds of the descent. I figured that was my problem and, kind of knowing that I wasn't going to get the set, tried my absolute best to keep my knees where they are and sit back. As a result, the first rep looks absolutely perfect, but the second rep I kind of fall back into bad habits even when focusing all my energy into fighting them. Is there a reason why this knee-slide technique is stronger for me? It appears as though that's just what my body wants to do when it gets heavy. Also, the good morning is kind of what I'm referring to about 2/3rds of the way up the ascent where really the only part of my body that's moving is my hips. The bar is in front of mid-foot, and my hips are extending to get it back over mid-foot, and then I just stand up real easy. If you watch the second video, especially the last rep, this is apparent. That portion of the lift right there is always what makes me fail a set and fatigue me for the next one because it is so hard. I don't believe it's normal for a lifter to have a throbbing, sore lower back and relatively fresh quads/posterior chain after a heavy set of squats?


Positron: I agree with your summation of what is happening completely. I don't really like the idea of adding in assistance exercises unless I absolutely have to (not because it's a horrible idea, but because complexity is generally frowned upon in SS). I really do believe this could be fixed with proper cueing. Do you have any ideas? For the third set, the failed triple, I told myself, "Hips back, knees back" on the descent. Perhaps you have a better cue?


Ivan: You make a good point about the grip width. As for the "proud chest", I have been paying specific attention to this cue recently, and though it has relieved some of my shoulder pain during the squat, it has done nothing for my elbow pain. I normally grip the bar with the point of articulation of my outstretched thumbs on the beginning of the knurl, which is a pretty close grip. I think I'll start widening it to the fingernail or maybe entire thumb length outside the knurl. I also agree with the knees moving too far forward. Do you have any cues that might help me to do this while it's heavy? During the third set, I was thinking "hips back, knees back" and still ended up allowing my knees to come forward during the second set. Maybe it will get better with practice?


Erik: Thanks, man, I've been really happy with the progress. If you're asking, the reason why I haven't switched to a top set with back-offs is because I thought I had some more PRs left even before I added in a light day. I fully plan on going to the top set and back-offs, but I feel like that may be a bit premature. I think if I get this whole deal straightened out, I could realistically end LP with squat around 360x5, which would make sense for a man at my height, weight, and age (6'3", 230, 19). But if you think switching to the top set and back-offs schedule earlier than I think would benefit me, I'll consider it. Could you explain to me why, specifically, you think I should make that change?

[Ryan Conners]

Not an expert here . But it looks to me like you might be breaking at the hip first then knees. Try to break at the hips and knees simultaneously. I had knee pain when I was breaking at the hips first. It was causing the bar to drift forward of mid foot (and then goodmorning to correct). When I corrected this knee pain went away. Good luck!

[Erik Y]

Erik: Thanks, man, I've been really happy with the progress. If you're asking, the reason why I haven't switched to a top set with back-offs is because I thought I had some more PRs left even before I added in a light day. I fully plan on going to the top set and back-offs, but I feel like that may be a bit premature. I think if I get this whole deal straightened out, I could realistically end LP with squat around 360x5, which would make sense for a man at my height, weight, and age (6'3", 230, 19). But if you think switching to the top set and back-offs schedule earlier than I think would benefit me, I'll consider it. Could you explain to me why, specifically, you think I should make that change?

The reason why I recommended the backoffs isn’t anything complicated: Your form first had a problem on the first rep of the second set, which would have been your first rep of backoffs. But I didn’t realize you hadn’t added in a light day yet - that comes first. Don’t get stuck on trying to hit 360x5x3 in a week. Think about hitting 380x5x3 in a month, and then 405x5 a few weeks later. You’re having a great run of LP, and if the adjustments help out, some fantastic numbers might be in the cards, but you’ll need to manage fatigue to get there. ANLP is still NLP, and some people run it out for a very long time.

[Ivan Stepic]

Ivan: You make a good point about the grip width. As for the "proud chest", I have been paying specific attention to this cue recently, and though it has relieved some of my shoulder pain during the squat, it has done nothing for my elbow pain. I normally grip the bar with the point of articulation of my outstretched thumbs on the beginning of the knurl, which is a pretty close grip. I think I'll start widening it to the fingernail or maybe entire thumb length outside the knurl. I also agree with the knees moving too far forward. Do you have any cues that might help me to do this while it's heavy? During the third set, I was thinking "hips back, knees back" and still ended up allowing my knees to come forward during the second set. Maybe it will get better with practice?

Do you feel your elbow on 225? Maybe try to use your warmups to play around with the grip. I'm 6'1" and my pinky finger is on the marking (not sure if it's power or oly marking) and if I move it 1 or 2 inches narrower my elbows start hurting. I have no idea why, just sharing my experience.

As for the knees, try thinking about reaching back with the hips on the way down. This is probably a problem that was there before you posted these videos so if standard cues don't help, a reset may be warranted (or not). It is probably useful to have a coach for these type of things. Good luck.

[Devyn Stewart]

Not an expert here . But it looks to me like you might be breaking at the hip first then knees. Try to break at the hips and knees simultaneously. I had knee pain when I was breaking at the hips first. It was causing the bar to drift forward of mid foot (and then goodmorning to correct). When I corrected this knee pain went away. Good luck!

Thanks for your reply, Ryan. I'm not so sure that what I'm doing at the very top of the movement is the problem, considering the bar stays pretty close to mid-foot there, but I tend to lose it forward at the bottom. I see what you're saying, though. I could potentially make a better habit out of setting my knees forward first, then descending with my hips.