Squat advice

[Mark Rippetoe]

The book does not tell you to learn depth with a dumbbell under your ass. Thus, my question.

[Matt James]

If you're having hip pain on one side only, it's possible you have a leg length discrepancy. Rip has an article on how to measure your legs. I have about 1/4 inch discrepancy and it caused a great deal of pain once I got over about 275 lbs on the squat. Once I corrected that the pain basically disappeared.

Knee slide will cause a LOT of hip pain too, and the way you are reaching for that dumbbell with your ass is going to create bad habits that will probably end up with you letting your knees slide forward when you squat without it.

Depth... the hip crease, the point of the ">" that forms between your thighs and your hips, needs to be below the top of the kneecap (the patella). Don't overthink it.

[Alceste]

@ Matt: Thank you very much for your response! What did you do correct your leg length discrepancy? I have been experiencing hip pain only ever since I have started low bar squatting. I did front squats before with 120 KG for sets of 5 and I had 0 issues with my hips (but with my knees instead). However, I do know that I have a leg length discrepancy as well and I used to get extra inlays for my shoes when I was a kid. But these never seemed to really help me. I also don't remember the actual measurements. I will check out Rip's article.
I disagree about the knee slide though - I used to have considerable amount of knee slide when I started lowbar squatting and as far as I can see it didn't come back by using the dumbbell. I just tried to apply your definition of depth which differs considerably from the one in the book to my video but it sort of leaves me still confused. But maybe perspective also plays a role?

[Alceste]

The book does not tell you to learn depth with a dumbbell under your ass. Thus, my question.

I was told to squat to depth and I did what I had to to make sure I was squatting to depth. I was not aware of the fact that a necessary condition to follow the program is not only to do all the things specified in the book but also to not do everything that is not specified in the book. My bad.

Now that we got that covered, would you please share your assessment as to why I keep hurting myself so bad (and no I am not a winy little boy - I have suffered my fair amount of pain such as having to cope with a surgical wound of 30 cm without sedatives because they had broken the machine that was supposed to feed them to me through my spine)? I want to rule out the much despised dumbbell as a suspect though since s/he wasn't present the first time I hurt myself.

[Nockian]

Get around parallel. I've explained. The bottom of the squat is the stretch feel in the hamstrings which happens at parallel. You can go a bit lower if you prefer, but that's not a necessity. Whilst you are using that dumbbell you won't learn to feel the point when the hamstrings stretch, instead you will become reliant on the touch of the dumbbell. Think of it like driving a car, when turning a corner you don't require to know how many degrees to turn the steering wheel every time, you learn by doing the repetition succesfully a number of times until you don't think about it. Get someone to watch you and shout 'lower' 'higher' etc until it's more obvious what it feels like, but for Gods sake throw that fucking dumbbell away.

[Matt James]

I use a fairly hard insert in my shoe on the short leg side, both for lifting and in everyday wear. The most effective and permanent option is to have a cobbler shim your weightlifting shoe. (I would still recommend wearing an insert during the day though). There have been multiple threads on this subject in the past few months.

Regarding knee slide, did you watch the video you posted? Watch it again, in slow motion if you have to.

My definition of depth is taken directly from figure 2-1 in the book. There's a photo and everything.

[Alceste]

I use a fairly hard insert in my shoe on the short leg side, both for lifting and in everyday wear. The most effective and permanent option is to have a cobbler shim your weightlifting shoe. (I would still recommend wearing an insert during the day though). There have been multiple threads on this subject in the past few months.

Regarding knee slide, did you watch the video you posted? Watch it again, in slow motion if you have to.

My definition of depth is taken directly from figure 2-1 in the book. There's a photo and everything.

Okay then I'll head back to the doctor to get the inserts that way I'll be able to get the measurements for adjustments of my weightlifting shoes at the same time. With respect to the knee slide - I still disagree. I admit, there is still some knee slide - on some reps more than on others - but if you compare that to my previous videos it has become way better. There is no evidence that the dumbbell has affected my knee slide in any way. However, given the new definition of what it means to follow the program I'll get rid of it. However I am still not sure how to properly judge my own depth.

Regarding your definition - I disagree as well. It is not taken out of the book. The definition to be found there is the one I partially quoted in my first post i.e. the one that makes reference to the word apex:

When we squat, the standard range-of-motion criterion for the exercise is "below parallel," defined as the hip joint (identified at the apex of the hip angle, the "corner" in your shorts over the hip) as it drops below the knee (identified as the top of the patella).

No definition in the book makes reference to a V formed by your thighs. The graphics are misleading as has been pointed out by others here in this forum who got called out on depth yet whose forms resembled the one on the photos and drawings in the book. That this issue is not of such a trivial matter as evoked by many can also be verified by the very fact that rip himself has stated numerous times that powerlifting judges are often times not able to properly judge depth (this is in one of the older videos where he's talking to esteemed powerlifters).
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[Alceste]

Get around parallel. I've explained. The bottom of the squat is the stretch feel in the hamstrings which happens at parallel. You can go a bit lower if you prefer, but that's not a necessity. Whilst you are using that dumbbell you won't learn to feel the point when the hamstrings stretch, instead you will become reliant on the touch of the dumbbell. Think of it like driving a car, when turning a corner you don't require to know how many degrees to turn the steering wheel every time, you learn by doing the repetition succesfully a number of times until you don't think about it. Get someone to watch you and shout 'lower' 'higher' etc until it's more obvious what it feels like, but for Gods sake throw that fucking dumbbell away.

Getting around parallel is not enough - Rip makes that clear both in the book and in the forum rules. Just go and take a look at how many posts in this forum get called out on depth or to quote Pete on that matter "Dem's de rules". Getting someone to call me out on depth requires that this someone knows how to apply the definition of depth. I asked numerous people and they all admitted they didn't get it.

[Matt James]

"The 'apex' of the hip angle, the 'corner' in your shorts over the hip"

Apex in this context means "point" or "tip." The tip of the corner in your shorts. I used a > to illustrate the same concept. They all refer to the same structure. The arrow in the photo points to the same spot. That point needs to be lower than the top of your knee cap.

Now, knee slide. Your knees are popping forward at the same moment that you're loosening up a the bottom in order to dip your butt down to touch the dumbbell. You may not think that's a problem, but it's not the way to reach proper depth; you want to maintain your tightness and just continue the movement below parallel, not loosen up and shift your pelvis to do it, as you are in the video.

And since your main complaint is hip pain, and knee slide contributes *directly* to hip pain, I suggest that you not be so dismissive when people point it out to you. I generally don't comment in the technique forum because I lack the experienced eye of many here...but I have gone through similar form problems, struggles with depth, and especially hip pain, both from knee slide and from leg length discrepancy, and I'm just trying to pass what I've learned from that experience on to you. Spend less time arguing and more time listening.

[Zappey1]

Here is a story I have about doctors, pain and lifting maybe it will help you. When I was in the Navy about 24 or so I slipped at a river and cut my arm really bad on a glass bottle. I needed about 50 to 100 stitches all on my forearm and wrist. I could see down to the muscle on my forearm. Needless to say I had to take some time off lifting. Fast forward a few years and I was back to lifting. While doing some arm curls I noticed a large bulge in my forearm where the scar was.

At this time I was stationed in Greece and the Navy doctors convinced me to let the Greek doctors try to fix my arm. Well it did not go well. They made it much worse. On a side note never get surgery in Greece. The Navy doctors told me my lifting days were done.

At that time I had 2 choices to make. Listen to the Doctor that had never lifted a day in his life or slowly see how much my arm could take. Well...... did it hurt to bench with a extremely messed up arm? You bet it did for years. But I have gotten stronger on the bench with a PR of 400 lbs. Did it make my arm worse? I actually think it has helped me with atrophy in the arm. If I would have stopped lifting and listened to the doctor maybe my arm would be better or maybe it would be worse.

The point is a man has to make his own choices. Should you take into the advice of doctors? Sure. But always remember most of them have never probably lifted a day in their lives.

Hope this story helped here is a link to my YouTube to check out the progress: YouTube