Squat form check 63 yo master redux

[Intricate35]

Hey team!

Can someone please check out this vid of my father squatting 200 lbs (161 BW soaking wet) and offer some advice to get his forward lean fixed? This is his form on the final set.

He's done well on LP despite giving me every excuse why he can't eat enough to gain weight (can't digest it, keeps him up at night). We've had to institute a light day Wednesdays and reset his squat once thus far. His other lifts are all progressing fine with his pressing movements artificially high due to a lifetime of squat neglect (current bench is 175, 3x5).

He says he feels fine, but his lean looks excessive. It's got me worried about him injuring his back. You can see halfway up he has to really strain to get the bar path in line to get upward momentum again. I've tried all the queues to keep him from leaning so far (chest up!), but nothing seems to work. His lean is nowhere near this excessive on warm-up weights (under 170 lbs). I've included a warm-up at 115 lbs for comparison.

Any help would be appreciated!

200 lbs progression
200 lbs form check - YouTube

Warm-ups 115 lbs.
August 2, 2022 - YouTube

[Mark Rippetoe]

Your dad needs a better coach. There's nothing wrong with his back angle on any of these squats at 200. The last 2 reps were high, and he needs some bodyweight, but stop trying to make him do a high-bar squat. The 115 warmup set with no breathing and a pause is wrong.

[Intricate35]

Mark,

I'm no coach but have read all your books and have had a decent amount of success with your programs (even at 40 now). I am no advocate of a high bar squat. I just recently decided to call my LP at the highest I've ever attained before feeling like recovery is inadequate.

That being said I've never even gotten close to a 90-degree angle from vertical (which he seems to be doing). Even if the angle is "correct," for his anthropometry his bar path is over his toes on the bottom half of the movement because of the forward lean. At the very least I'd like to help him correct this. If you feel there is no need for correction, I'll tell him to just keep adding weight and eat more (which he won't do).

Final LP PR:
425 Pause - YouTube

Dad Angles:
IMG_2289.jpg

[Mark Rippetoe]

Understanding the Master Cue | Mark Rippetoe

Why are you doing paused singles?

[Intricate35]

Understanding the Master Cue | Mark Rippetoe

Why are you doing paused singles?

I do my normal 3x5 as prescribed in SS. This was a test to ascertain 1RMs for the Baker HLM cycle I am about to begin.

It was also recommended to test my pause squat single for the masters league I may compete in later this year. The judges are notorious for red flagging squats. I can probably handle another 30-40 lbs on a normal single.

Current goal is to hit 500 at the end of this 12 week cycle.

[EdTice]

Mark,

I'm no coach but have read all your books and have had a decent amount of success with your programs (even at 40 now). I am no advocate of a high bar squat. I just recently decided to call my LP at the highest I've ever attained before feeling like recovery is inadequate.

That being said I've never even gotten close to a 90-degree angle from vertical (which he seems to be doing). Even if the angle is "correct," for his anthropometry his bar path is over his toes on the bottom half of the movement because of the forward lean. At the very least I'd like to help him correct this. If you feel there is no need for correction, I'll tell him to just keep adding weight and eat more (which he won't do).

Final LP PR:
425 Pause - YouTube

Dad Angles:
IMG_2289.jpg

I hate to comment in a thread where Mark has already commented since it is very likely that I can add anything. Rep 4 was high. In rep 5, he could not reach depth due to the weight being too heavy and leaned his forward a bit at the end in somewhat of a 'squat morning.' However, it wasn't so much that he lost his balance. Since all of the squats that were to depth are correct, it seems that the real issue here is just recognizing that the reps that failed to reach depth are really failed reps and deload/reset according to the program. Your dad is certainly not the first person in the world to fail a rep that way and he won't be the last. As far as I know it won't cause his pancreas to explode although the form creep will progress if the load isn't managed properly.

[Intricate35]

Ed,

Thank you for the comments. This was my thought exactly. I don't think the video really displays how severely he's leaning nor how badly he's having to strain to get the bar back in to the correct bar path. In person, at the bottom of his squat, his back is nearly level with the floor. When he doesn't lean this far forward (first two sets), he hits depth and completes the reps much easier. It would be great to get him in front of a SS coach, but we live pretty far from any that are readily available.

My thought was to let him try 205, and if he misses depth/leans excessively, deload him 10% and start back up. He may at that point have to be switched to intermediate as he refuses to eat enough to gain weight (citing digestion/sleep issues) so his recovery is comprised greatly. We are naturally hard gainers and smaller people (I started around 160 lbs myself), and I only put on weight eating over 5k calories a day. This may not be a realistic goal for him.

[EdTice]

Ed,

Thank you for the comments. This was my thought exactly. I don't think the video really displays how severely he's leaning nor how badly he's having to strain to get the bar back in to the correct bar path. In person, at the bottom of his squat, his back is nearly level with the floor. When he doesn't lean this far forward (first two sets), he hits depth and completes the reps much easier. It would be great to get him in front of a SS coach, but we live pretty far from any that are readily available.

My thought was to let him try 205, and if he misses depth/leans excessively, deload him 10% and start back up. He may at that point have to be switched to intermediate as he refuses to eat enough to gain weight (citing digestion/sleep issues) so his recovery is comprised greatly. We are naturally hard gainers and smaller people (I started around 160 lbs myself), and I only put on weight eating over 5k calories a day. This may not be a realistic goal for him.

I am not qualified to answer much of this comment. So you'll have to wait for others. Somebody who isn't strong enough to squat 200 isn't going to have much luck with 205! Has he ever actually failed reps and had to put the bar down on the pins? There might be psychological factors at play here. I would have him practice setting down some reps and stepping out so that he isn't afraid to try to hit depth even as he gets tired. But some coaches actually do the opposite and take the safety pins away (but spot the lift) under the premise that the fear will let you get a few more kilos. I can't say which is physiologically better. I'd rather have lifters be confident that they have the skills to fail a rep. So if he hasn't ever done that, it might worth trying to "fail" the last rep of warmup sets.

[Intricate35]

I am not qualified to answer much of this comment. So you'll have to wait for others. Somebody who isn't strong enough to squat 200 isn't going to have much luck with 205! Has he ever actually failed reps and had to put the bar down on the pins? There might be psychological factors at play here. I would have him practice setting down some reps and stepping out so that he isn't afraid to try to hit depth even as he gets tired. But some coaches actually do the opposite and take the safety pins away (but spot the lift) under the premise that the fear will let you get a few more kilos. I can't say which is physiologically better. I'd rather have lifters be confident that they have the skills to fail a rep. So if he hasn't ever done that, it might worth trying to "fail" the last rep of warmup sets.

He's not afraid of failing. He actually failed 3 sets at 190 (last rep of each set), and we reset him to 175 and have worked him back up from there. The leaning has been an issue since he hit body weight (~160). He has pins, and I would prefer having him continue to use them as he lives an hour or so from me and I only am able to supervise him 1-2 times a month. He sends me videos of his last sets each workout day though. He seems to be comfortable with setting the weight down on the pins.

There are probably psychological factors though, as his goal is 2 plates, and to him, that seems a mythical number never having squatted before. As we all know as things get relatively heavy, squats can feel like they are crushing you to death. From his online reading, he has an obsession with "hip drive" (and how little he is able to generate himself). I believe that is one of the main issues causing the rocking at the bottom of the movement. Funnily enough, his DL (285 x5), and Bench (185 3x5) are cruising with no issues.

I'm in the same boat as you Ed. I'm no trainer but have gained enough knowledge here to become (relatively) strong myself. At least for an old guy that travels 4 days a week. I've never had the issues he's having though, as I was blessed to inherit my mom's leg genetics (large thighs, short femurs). I think I'll just have to keep an eye out for a SS squat camp to come to CA and get his ass to it even if I have to take a vaca day. It will likely pay dividends in the long run.

[Mark Rippetoe]

He's not afraid of failing. He actually failed 3 sets at 190 (last rep of each set), and we reset him to 175 and have worked him back up from there. The leaning has been an issue since he hit body weight (~160). He has pins, and I would prefer having him continue to use them as he lives an hour or so from me and I only am able to supervise him 1-2 times a month. He sends me videos of his last sets each workout day though. He seems to be comfortable with setting the weight down on the pins.

Squat form check 63 yo master redux

Why do I take the time to respond to questions when I am ignored? If you don't like the way we teach the squat, post on a different board that will agree with you.