Reply With QuoteOops. Double post.
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Time to start. A composition notebook works nicely and requires no power to operate.Originally Posted by EliGreen
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Oops. Double post.
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Just started one earlier today in a comp book I found in a droor
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I think it works fairly well to a point. That said, I know several strong posters on this board (450-500+ squatters), including myself, who have not experienced the same thing past the early novices stages. I even went to an SS seminar and passed the cert. I'm not saying this means my technique is beyond reproach or anything like that, but I do NOT have funky anthropometry. My arms are actually on the long side for my height.
I think part of the reason why haltings/rack pulls eventually become necessary on the standard SS protocol is that 1x5 does not build adequate volume tolerance. Once the weight gets heavy enough, the trainees' base is not sufficient to handle more strenuous programming particularly when in combination with the squat volume prescribed by the TM. There are plenty of guys with 700+ and 800+ deadlifts that still deadlift weekly if not even more frequently. And most of them even do more than one set. There are lots of examples of this including some very popular, very effective programs: 5/3/1, Madcows, and the Coan/Philippi deadlift program.
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I remember you from Seattle, Tom, so I am not questioning your familiarity with Rip's assertions on the deadlift, nor your personal experiences and observations. However, I disagree that one set of five rarely works because I have seen it work in a lot of people including men and women from their twenties through their late sixties/early seventies. Your contention above was that 1x5 on the deads is the wrong choice for most people. This is not to say it works for everyone, but when applied correctly, it can certainly be broadly effective. Of course, as trainees advance, things change. I am well aware of the high volume programs out there for deads and that lots of people use them and see gains. I would submit, however, that a single set of five on the deads when smartly combined with the rest of the lifts can and does work and can be used productively for quite a while by some.
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Good choice. Knowing what you have done and when you did it is valuable data to have.
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I don't believe I said "rarely", but I agree with the rest of what you've said -- particularly if the trainee does their power cleans AND uses the SS-style form for squats. Another member, Josiah Moye, has suggested that a wider stance in combination with not doing, or neglecting, power cleans is the common denominator between the people who have big squats and not as big deadlifts. I've begun to think he's correct. I think the primary reason for this is that power cleans raise the total pulling volume to something more adequate. I could be wrong.
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I think you and Josiah are correct that power cleans are important in getting volume in on the pulls and assisting the deads. I may have been misreading you above, but when you said, "1x5 is not effective for almost everyone," I assumed that meant 1x5 rarely works.
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I meant more so that there's a "chunk" of people for whom 1x5 does not produce results for as long as the average trainee. I think 1x5 works well enough for most people. I even had a trainee who got as high 500x5 on the basic novice program for the deadlift. I personally got to 395x5 before my deadlift starting regressing using the basic 1x5 protocol.
I think some people respond well to volume. For these people, 1x5 isn't as effective. Obviously, that is a wholly unscientific observation based purely on experience and anecdote. I'm just guessing that this is the cause, but I do see more instances of this in the log section than I do on other sites I visit that use more traditional powerlifting programs.
Consider this, by the time the trainee graduates to TM, his tonnage might look like this:
Squat:
Monday: 5x5 @ 90% of Friday
Wednesday: 2x5 @ 70% of Monday
Friday: 1x5 @ 85% of 1RM (85% is "close" to a 5RM)
Tonnage = (5x5 * (.9 * .85)) + (2x5 * (.9*.85*.7)) + 1x5*.85
Tonnage = 29.115, you multiply this number by 1RM to find total tonnage
Deadlift:
Monday: 1x5 @ 85%
Friday: 5x3 @ ~85% of PC 1RM
Assuming that the trainee power cleans 60% of their deadlift 1RM:
Tonnage = (1x5 * .85) + (5x3 * .85 * .6)
Tonnage = 11.9
You're looking at approximately ~2.5x as much tonnage for the squat when compared to the deadlift. If the trainee gets a strong carryover from the squat to the deadlift, and responds to "intensity", this protocol will work quite well. If the trainee does not get a good carryover because, perhaps, they use a wide stance or there is some anthropometric goofiness, this really isn't enough tonnage to drive progress, IMHO.
And if you look at the numbers without the power cleans, you're looking at an EXTREMELY low volume program. I think there are many for whom this would not be enough volume.
At the end of the day, there is one thing that is almost always true: if your squat is higher than your deadlift, you are probably squatting high. I think it is probably rarer for 1x5 not to be effective for quite some time than it is for it to quit being effective sooner than expected. But it does happen. As much as I hate the special snowflake mentality, different programming protocols work differently for different people at different times. It isn't always possible to determine why.
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No doubt. They are in the program, not because Rip wants people to be good at the Olympic lifts, but because, while he doesn't think it is effective to pull heavy more than once a week after the initial handful of weeks, he appreciates some form of additional pulling needs to be done and power cleans fit his needs well.
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