Because I don't get to sleep for a few weeks: Hbbs vs LBBS

[Mike C]

all muscles pull there's not a single muscle that pushes in the human body

the muscles contract - the body pushes/pulls

[Dastardly]

The human body is nowhere near as simple as levers in a single axis. There is a lot of stuff going on, some people will always be superior at high bar squats. One of the usual reasons being that those with shorter torso/longer legs get very bent over in a squat, making competition parallel depth close to impossible and the shearing forces on the spine/back very great. A more upright position means there is less work for back muscles to do, and more force is going downward along the spine, in its strongest plane like a tower of bricks.

Trade off with high bar is that you have less stored elastic energy in the hamstrings, but very often this is not the limiting factor so it doesn't matter. A wider stance can be used to spread load onto more muscle groups like the adductors, reduce vertical ROM and stay more upright.

Internal rotation of the femurs puts a lot of stress on the knees, but many lifters do it anyway. Weightlifters choose this weaker position as it mirrors the O-Lifts and develops specific strength & joint preparation. Even some (Low Bar) powerlifters like Andrei Malanchiev internally rotate femurs and get knees forward despite mechanical disadvantage as it aids in depth whilst maintaining decent back angle.

Some of the weightlifters that squat with either internally rotated femurs to stay more upright or just excessively deep would be able to squat greater loads by different means which would still pass powerlifting regs. There are situations where a lifter who can squat a certain weight one way is as strong as somebody else who can squat more weight in a different way. But its usually not a big disparity. This could be found out by telling the former lifter to use any means necessary to move more weight. Sometimes "more difficult" technique creates greater development is specific muscle groups. Squatting fairly neutral wide/toe angle puts more stress on quads, hits the medial muscle in a way "knees out" squatting doesnt much. This can aid is things like the 2nd pull in the O-lifts, and the jerk.

[Manimal]

deleted, question answered

[MattJ.D.]

the muscles contract - the body pushes/pulls

the muscle contracts, pulling on the tendon which in turn pulls on the bone from the proximal end, which can cause the distal end to move in the opposite direction that the proximal end is being pulled which then can come in contact with an external object and the rest happens from there

but no bone in the body is ever pushed because of a muscle

[Mike C]

the muscle contracts, pulling on the tendon which in turn pulls on the bone from the proximal end, which can cause the distal end to move in the opposite direction that the proximal end is being pulled which then can come in contact with an external object and the rest happens from there

but no bone in the body is ever pushed because of a muscle

Yup

[Notrhwoods]

To look at which squat will have the greatest training effect look at the total work per repetition. W = F*d (work equals force times distance). Force, F, is the force of gravity on the barbell, or the weight. Distance, d, is the distance of bar travel, or the ROM.

The SS model is for general strength, and is not sport specific. For a LBBS, F is greater but d is smaller. Through Rippetoe's experience, he thinks that F*d (weight*ROM) is greatest for the average person with a LBBS as opposed to a HBBS.

The people arguing for HBBS are talking about olympic lifters, specifically, as opposed to the average person. It is entirely possible that this subset of the population can display a higher % of their maximum LBBS weight through the longer ROM of a HBBS than the average person (either genetically or through training or both). For these people F*d could be greatest for HBBS because they can significantly increase d (ROM) while decreasing F (weight) to a lesser extent than the average person.

This makes sense as well based on HONEYBADGER's comments about olympic lifters needing to be stronger at a lower position, i.e. at the bottom of ROM in a HBBS. They need to be stronger with the bar lower to the ground for their sport, so they are (as compared to the average person). This could also explain why front squatting doesn't make HBBS useless. d is similar for HBBS and front squat, but F is greater for HBBS.

DISCLAIMER: I have no experience with olympic weightlifting. This is an engineer's attempt to explain what might be going on in the argument.

[Notrhwoods]

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[Notrhwoods]

This is similar to Rip's statement on one of his podcasts that "A person with 500# LBBS to depth is always stronger than a person with a 600# half squat". (That isn't an exact quote but it was something like that when he was using football lineman as an example).

Maybe for olympic lifters you could say a person with a 450# full depth olympic squat is always stronger than a person with a 500# LBBS to depth and is always stronger than a person with a 600# half squat.

[Tom Narvaez]

Everyone crying in that other thread should be fucking ashamed. It's a fucking thread. Who cares if it gets derailed. Seriously. Who gives a shit. Fuck. People are so damn sensitive these days.

lol, excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for not wanting to listen to a bunch of circle-jerk, theory-wanking about weightlifting from a bunch of people who don't even fucking weightlift.

[Mike C]

lol, excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for not wanting to listen to a bunch of circle-jerk, theory-wanking about weightlifting from a bunch of people who don't even fucking weightlift.

The whole idea that people actually believe that because they read A FUCKING BOOK on the subject that they're qualified to critique the practices and methods of elite athletes and coaches is just disgusting to me. Jordan is probably the only person in the whole thread who has ever even been to a weightlifting meet. So the fact that the rest of you are so sure you're "right" about something you have no practical experience with whatsoever.... it is disrespectful at best.

I would have the exact same reaction if you Andrey Malanichev came onto this board and posted his best "raw squat" and you fuckers immediately started telling him how wraps weren't wrap. Just ridiculous bullshit. That is all it is.

Except that's not at all what happened. You missed the part where the guy came to rip's board and intentionally made a comment that rip (didn't mention him by name, but his intention was pretty obvious) has no idea what the fuck he's talking about, and then outed himself as a pendlay pawn. If you don't want to read the shit - then don't click the thread. I mean do you really care about that kid's lift so much that you need to continue to go back into the thread to check it out?

And criticizing the lifter (which no one did) is very different from attacking the poster's argument that "anyone who uses low bar knows nothing about weightlifting".