Knowing your deadlift work capacity

[timelinex]

I have another question about DL programming during the novice phase.

It seems like in most video I watch, people do each rep with barely any time between reps. Ever since I've gotten past 315 or so, I probably take a solid 3-5 seconds between reps to catch my breathe (I don't let go of the bar). After my last rep, I'm seeing stars! Am I "pushing too hard" if I need to do it this way, or is this fine and just a testament to my bad conditioning (I haven't done much cardio outside of lifting in the last half year). I guess I just don't know if there is a limit to how long we can take between reps for it to still be the same set and the right weight for the prescribed reps.

[Marenghi]

If you reach the same number of reps (in total), its not important how long the inter-rep-pauses are. When you manipulate that in studies, it shows that total volume counts, and rests are pretty meaningless (for strength and hypertrophy, conditioning is different).

In practice if you really miscalculated your working weight greatly and took a 3RM weight for a planned set of 6 - you wouldnt be able to get in the same total number of reps regardless how long your inter-rep-rests, showing you that the weight is the culpable, not your conditioning. You also feel that during the first couple of reps when your conditioning should still hold up: when you need ten seconds between the first and second rep, youre very likely not in a 5RM set.

[Jeff Illingworth]

I have another question about DL programming during the novice phase.

It seems like in most video I watch, people do each rep with barely any time between reps. Ever since I've gotten past 315 or so, I probably take a solid 3-5 seconds between reps to catch my breathe (I don't let go of the bar). After my last rep, I'm seeing stars! Am I "pushing too hard" if I need to do it this way, or is this fine and just a testament to my bad conditioning (I haven't done much cardio outside of lifting in the last half year). I guess I just don't know if there is a limit to how long we can take between reps for it to still be the same set and the right weight for the prescribed reps.

Deadlifts can really suck the oxygen out of you. Between being in what is, for a lot of people, a lousy position to get a good breath and then picking up a heavy weight, it can make a person light headed (probably some blood flow issues in here, too).

As far as timing between reps, it tends to be kind of experimental for me. I have to find the balance between having enough time to get set (get tight, get air, adjust grip if needed, etc.) and waiting long enough that I realize just how much I don't want to pick the damned thing up again.

[LimieJosh]

Pin squats are pretty rough too, a fair bit rougher than pause squats from my limited experience, so your theory seems correct.

It's not really a fair comparison though, because generally you'd use a lighter weight if you are doing a variation of a lift that takes out the stretch reflex. I will frequently use a form of paused squats (mostly from the pins) as my second/lighter squat day. This forces me to go lighter. This still allows me to "work hard", but the reduced load means it is a stimulus I can recover from better than if I did regular squats at whatever heavier weight was necessary to match the level of effort I put into my pin squats.

FWIW, as to the original question from the OP I have found that what constitutes too much volume is moveable number and can be trained. I have bad hips and so have never managed the sort of volume or frequency often advocated on here, but early on, even with that reduced volume, the low volume deadlifting approach was a real challenge to my recovery. At some point I started adding pulling volume, and while it was hit and miss as to how it worked, over time I developed a much improved capacity to perform higher volumes and recover from them, and my deadlift responded accordingly. As Brodie suggested, I think you have to play with relative effort per set and find the right combination. For me, I've had some success with one heavy set and back offs. I have had some success with as many as 7-8 sets across (although that is not a long term strategy at all). What I have not had much success with except for a short period as a novice is the low volume of one all out effort. However, that needs to be put the context of now having a 3x BW dead, and squatting with less volume than most people.

[LimieJosh]

I have bad hips and so have never managed the sort of volume or frequency often advocated on here, but early on, even with that reduced volume,

Note, I forgot to use the word "squat" in that sentence when talking about reduced volume.

[perman]

It's not really a fair comparison though, because generally you'd use a lighter weight if you are doing a variation of a lift that takes out the stretch reflex. I will frequently use a form of paused squats (mostly from the pins) as my second/lighter squat day. This forces me to go lighter. This still allows me to "work hard", but the reduced load means it is a stimulus I can recover from better than if I did regular squats at whatever heavier weight was necessary to match the level of effort I put into my pin squats.

I agree partly, but while doing The Bridge, my recovery seemed to decline when I switched out the Wednesday variation from pause squats to pin squats, and so I switched back to be safe. I had what I consider a "lifting hangover" the next day which is when my nervous system feels overstimulated. I associate that more typically with heavy squats or deadlifts, and not with pause squats, so the effect seemed noticeably different to me. I know also that Andy Baker considers pin squats a Heavy day exercise, and not a Medium or a Light day

Not sure that's necessarily why my recovery wasn't good enough on a Thursday, but it's possible that while pause squats can allow sufficient recovery as a light/medium variation, pin squats will not. So the distinction is important IMO.

[LimieJosh]

I agree partly, but while doing The Bridge, my recovery seemed to decline when I switched out the Wednesday variation from pause squats to pin squats, and so I switched back to be safe. I had what I consider a "lifting hangover" the next day which is when my nervous system feels overstimulated. I associate that more typically with heavy squats or deadlifts, and not with pause squats, so the effect seemed noticeably different to me. I know also that Andy Baker considers pin squats a Heavy day exercise, and not a Medium or a Light day

Not sure that's necessarily why my recovery wasn't good enough on a Thursday, but it's possible that while pause squats can allow sufficient recovery as a light/medium variation, pin squats will not. So the distinction is important IMO.

I stay away from paused squats if there isnt some sort of artificial help to achieve the pause. It just screws with my motor pattern and I cant help but transfer that back to my real squats. So, I cannot speak to the difference between different variations of squats that have removed the stretch reflex. However, my point was to speak about the lack of stretch reflex in general. It is my experience that when this sort of variation is introduced it is easier to recover from because of the necessarily lower overall load compared to the regular lift (outside of some initial DOMS type you might get the first couple of times trying a new variation). So, with respect to the question about why the deadlift is so hard to recover from I do not think this is a reason.

Personally, I think the simplest answer is the most likely - it's just so much heavier than anything else for the vast majority of people. It also utilizes more of the musculature than anything else, much of which is difficult to stress like that in any other way and so is going to be hit particularly hard by this lift.

As I said previously, I think how much tolerance someone has to its effects is trainable, and so people who have only approached it with the low volume approach of Rip's most familiar programs might actually improve their tolerance to it over time by adding more volume. I also find it is a lift I can push more than any other. The way the lift starts allows you to recover inbetween reps in a way you cannot do so easily with other lifts (at least I can, I accept that for many bigger people this may not be the case) and so when I hit that point int he set where I think "that was really hard" I can still squeeze more reps out of the set than I can with any other lift. I think that possibly allows you to push your performance in a way that stresses your recovery reserves more completely than you can with anything else.

[NCuba]

Did anyone ever run an LP with 3x5 DL at the start of every workout with 1x5 squats coming after on every other workout?

If they managed to do so and survive, I wonder which lift they were more comfortable with, and which they found to be more taxing.

[perman]

So, I cannot speak to the difference between different variations of squats that have removed the stretch reflex.

I think there's a difference between the two exercises regarding the stretch reflex, and that neither fully remove the stretch reflex if the break is <2 secs, but I don't know what that difference entails. Remember someone (think maybe CJ Gotcher or Hanley) linked to an article that "proved" how long the pause had to be in a pause squat to fully remove the stretch reflex.

Also I think it's common to be able to lift more weight in a pin squat, which would make it more stressful. Whenever I see pin squats in a program, I never see them prescribed like "3 ct pin squat" because the length of the pause is obviously irrelevant, it's pushing it from a dead stop that's the challenge. Whereas in a pause squat, I don't think the start is that challenging, they're just generally exhausting rather.

[Sinai]

Did anyone ever run an LP with 3x5 DL at the start of every workout with 1x5 squats coming after on every other workout?

If they managed to do so and survive, I wonder which lift they were more comfortable with, and which they found to be more taxing.

I think this has much to do with it. There is a lot of overlap in those lifts, which ever you do last is going to seem to be more taxing because you are already fatigued.