Yet Another Weight Loss Question (Sorry!)

[FredM]

Maybe your lifts started to get hard due to a form issue, or some other reason. More likely they got hard because they are supposed to. Your lifts getting hard is not an excuse to add additional calories to a diet unless recovery is clearly lacking.

This, actually, is EXACTLY my point lol. It's easy to come to these forums and listen to zealots like you parrot: don't be a pu**y, gain weight -- and just do it because you think it's necessary. The OP is basically making the exact mistake I did. He doesn't want to trust Jordan because the information on this forum is confusing as hell for people that are borderline in some way.

My argument is that the answer is more nuanced than 40" waist. And maybe, just maybe, if someone has a 39" waist they should not try to gain any weight. Not 1 lb a week. Not half a pound. Not a freaking ounce. Because from my experience the return on investment when you're that close is pretty poor. I'd recommend to those people seeing how far recomp takes them, getting their form evaluated, and only gaining weight if a professional tells them to. Not Dalton Clark.

[Dalton Clark]

I have a light squat day, back off sets, and the weight goes up almost every session except for times when form creep becomes an issue. That is still a novice. I am not on weekly programming. You making this statement shows no small amount of ignorance on your part.
If you think that 3x5 is the end of novice programming, you have not read Practical Programming nor have any experience with late novice programming. Late novice is where a lot of issues come up, and you have to navigate those issues. You learn a lot during this process. Including having days where you might not get more weight on the bar for a variety of reasons. No, I don't feel compelled to give advice because I read the book (although I have read both Starting Strength and Practical Programming 4 times as well as multiple other texts in this field). I feel compelled to give advice because I've put in the work of doing the novice progression. I've had struggles, I've adjusted, and dealt with them. I've had to modify my diet to avoid excessive weight gain, I've had to work on my form, and I have hit walls that had to be navigated. Don't sell me short by saying that I'm parroting back what a book said. I speak based on all of the struggles I have had on this program. Something that I doubt you have any experience with considering your 2 months on the program.

I'm not going to encourage this discussion further.

[Charlie Davies]

There are two classic SSLP eating mistakes:

1) The trainees for whom everything else is right (technique, hormones, youth, etc) but who cripple their LP because they won't give up their abs, even temporarily.

2) The trainees who put on more fat than muscle trying to unstick their SSLP, even when lack of calories is not the root cause of their stall. I.e. they are old, or injured, or have bad form, or are already over-fat, not sleeping enough, etc.

I think the coaches tend to talk about failure (1) because it's so frustrating to see someone with so much promise fail for such a silly problem.
But I think failure (2) is a lot more common on this forum.

Figuring this shit out by yourself is hard. I think this is why most novices who try to run SSLP w/o a coach screw it up.

[Dalton Clark]

This, actually, is EXACTLY my point lol. It's easy to come to these forums and listen to zealots like you parrot: don't be a pu**y, gain weight -- and just do it because you think it's necessary. The OP is basically making the exact mistake I did. He doesn't want to trust Jordan because the information on this forum is confusing as hell for people that are borderline in some way.

My argument is that the answer is more nuanced than 40" waist. And maybe, just maybe, if someone has a 39" waist they should not try to gain any weight. Not 1 lb a week. Not half a pound. Not a freaking ounce. Because from my experience the return on investment when you're that close is pretty poor. I'd recommend to those people seeing how far recomp takes them, getting their form evaluated, and only gaining weight if a professional tells them to. Not Dalton Clark.

Alright, bud. You need to sit down. First of all, I am in no way a zealot who espouses this "gain weight, don't be a pussy" rhetoric that has come to be associated with Starting Strength somehow. That you believe I fit into this demographic is insane. You are straw-manning me and putting words in my mouth. If you want to debate my actual opinions, feel free but arguing with things I never even said is ridiculous.

My advice to individuals is that if they have a 37 inch waist at the belly button or over (or visual signs of statistically significant adipose tissue. . .a "tire" if you will or a gut), that they should eat to maintain or lower their waist measurement. You do this by trial and error. If you eat a certain way and your waist goes up, titrate calories down. If you are losing waist inches but your lifts are stalling, you might want to eat more to keep waist size constant unless you prioritize the decrease in waist size. If your waistline is decreasing and your lifts aren't stalling. . .carry on. This is what my Starting Strength Coach tells people. It isn't exactly hidden knowledge. If you are not visibly extremely lean, you probably don't need to gain enough fat to change your waist measurement.

[FredM]

Alright, bud. You need to sit down. First of all, I am in no way a zealot who espouses this "gain weight, don't be a pussy" rhetoric that has come to be associated with Starting Strength somehow. That you believe I fit into this demographic is insane. You are straw-manning me and putting words in my mouth. If you want to debate my actual opinions, feel free but arguing with things I never even said is ridiculous.

My advice to individuals is that if they have a 37 inch waist at the belly button or over (or visual signs of statistically significant adipose tissue. . .a "tire" if you will or a gut), that they should eat to maintain their waist measurement. You do this by trial and error. If you eat a certain way and your waist goes up, titrate calories down. If you are losing waist inches but your lifts are stalling, you might want to eat more unless you prioritize the decrease in waist size. If your waistline is decreasing and your lifts aren't stalling. . .carry on.

You are definitely a zealot. But no, you are not one of the zealots who explicitly told someone to gain weight when they maybe didn't need to. At least that I know of. They're separate points.

The confusion around gaining, losing or recomping for slightly - moderately fluffy novices is real. And it's debated among SS coaches themselves. The 40" rule is relatively new thanks to Jordan and Austin (and probably Robert Santana). Have you even read anything by Matt Reynolds? If not I direct you to "eating through the sticking points."

I'm trying to point out to other early novices it's nuanced and you and a couple others keep jumping down my throat like I'm telling them to give up on SS. Who is strawmanning who?

[Dalton Clark]

You are definitely a zealot. But no, you are not one of the zealots who explicitly told someone to gain weight when they maybe didn't need to. At least that I know of. They're separate points.

The confusion around gaining, losing or recomping for slightly - moderately fluffy novices is real. And it's debated among SS coaches themselves. The 40" rule is relatively new thanks to Jordan and Austin (and probably Robert Santana). Have you even read anything by Matt Reynolds? If not I direct you to "eating through the sticking points."

I'm trying to point out to other early novices it's nuanced and you and a couple others keep jumping down my throat like I'm telling them to give up on SS. Who is strawmanning who?

It is real for individuals who don't think about the information they are reading. The 40" rule is in no way new to anybody who has done any research on obesity or the effects of being overweight. This has been a published (widely) medical statistic for quite some time. I have read many things written by Matt Reynolds or listened to many things he has said . It is also important that you think about who Matt Reynolds is. He is a giant of a man who has competed as a super heavy weight lifter who has absolutely no issues with being chubby to get the job done. That is a different mentality. If your mentality doesn't match Coach Reynolds' then you probably shouldn't listen to his advice. The man has weighed over 300 pounds and - for those of us who follow this stuff regularly - you know that he is losing weight now. Similarly, Dr. Feigenbaum has a bias towards aesthetics because he likes getting laid and wants to present himself as extremely healthy for building his business.. Consider your sources and how they align with your goals before following their advice.

[FredM]

It is real for individuals who don't think about the information they are reading. The 40" rule is in no way new to anybody who has done any research on obesity or the effects of being overweight.

1. No sh**, Sherlock. Also known as people new to the SS methods and to the forum. We can't all be experts from day one like you, dude.
2. Also, no kidding. But it wasn't an important aspect of SS until Rip hired Jordan. As you yourself pointed out Reynolds is now losing weight thanks, likely, to the influence of Robert Santana and the BBM folks (Jordan/Austin).

The rest of your post is nonsense. I'm not arguing you have to be as thin as Jordan to be healthy. Nor am I arguing everyone concludes they need to be 300 pounds after listening to Matt Reynolds. At his point we're basically arguing the same effing thing. And with regards to this thread we've basically been arguing the same effing thing the ENTIRE time. But please, continue to call me an idiot who doesn't know how to diet. And I'll keep calling you an over confident zealot. How many more posts do you think we can keep it up?

[Dalton Clark]

About as long as you continue to sound extremely frustrated. It is most entertaining. Critical thinking is a third grade skill. Just because you are new to information doesn't mean you get a pass for not thinking about it critically. I never said you were arguing that you have to be as thin as Jordan so I don't know where that statement comes from. I'm also not sure where the statement about arguing everyone needs to be 300 pounds. Oh, I am in no way arguing with your point that people who are over-fat should not gain weightt. I think you somehow concluded that I was opposed to this idea because I started to debate you. I am arguing with your presentation and attitude towards it as well as your expressed opinion that Starting Strength somehow fails newbies by not providing enough information. Until Jordan Feigenbaum came around. . .

Honestly, it's been extremely fun having this moderately troll-ish experience at your expense.

[Charlie Davies]

At some point, someone has to let the other guy post last :-)

[Ringer3]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

You have asked Jordan what you should be doing and he's given you his opinion - so are you sure you're not just hoping that someone will come along in this thread and give you an answer that you like more? Do you think if that happens they are more qualified than Jordan to give you advice?

Thanks for calling me out on this, because it's probably true.

Just to be clear, It wasn't so much that Jordan recommended that I lose weight that surprised me. I freely admit that I'm fat, and I already knew about the 40 inch waist thing before I even posed the question. What surprised me is that he recommended that I lose weight right now, before even running the LP. But Jordan said something recently on his Instagram that sort of stuck with me:

"Most people are too obsessed with running a perfect LP, and you're not a pussy if you finish with a squat below 300 pounds."

Or it was something along those lines...

But anyways, I'm back to lifting and I'm currently running the advanced novice on a calorie deficit. Transitioning from a see-food/fast food diet to a strict diet with high protein and a fiber minimum is not turning out to be so easy, but I'm going to get it done.